Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 92 of 102 - 88 Rcv From : Dave Paxton 9:2500/2532 Sun 24 Jul 94 15:15 To : Larry Gowdy Subj : Refrigerator Tips ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LG> Hmmm, wonder how a big tank in the bed of my pickup with LG> a tube running to the carb would do........ Actually, not that far off. I have seen farm tractors and trucks run on this stuff. The digester is one BIG tank that produces the gas. The gas is powering a compressor that compresses the gas for use in the vehicles and supplys the buildings. For local arround the farm and arround the streets the pickup and the tractor actually use 2 propane tanks that are about 4 1/2 to5 ft long and about 2 1/2 ft. diameter in the bed of the truck and on the top of the "cab" of the tractor. LG> What size homestead would you recommend for a secluded survival LG> spot? I tend to think 40 acres is minimum for an area where you don't This is a difficult question to answere. It mostly depends on what you are expecting to happen. If you are expecting a monitary collapse then 40 acres is a good size. If you are expecting a massive civil upriseing 40 acres might be too much to guard, 5 acres might be good. If you are expecting a military take over or dictatorship then 1 acre could suffice and it should enclude fortification and concealability. I personally lean twords 5 acres. It is enough to etch our a living if you have to and is easily handeled by One man or a small family. On the one acre you can have a small, well fortified, easily concealed fall back location, just in case you need it. LG> have access to a river or national park on one side (I hate being boxed LG> in), but with a river or lake or such on one side, it almost seems a LG> waste to have more than maybe 10 to 20 acres. The little spot we have A bordering lake or river could make it possible to live on an acre or less. With a fair portion of you food comeing from the lake or river. LG> right now is just 6 acres, about perfect for two people without much of LG> anything better to do than sit around watching the weather roll by, but LG> still a tad too small to get the number of trees planted we need. I like the idea of haveing enough room for apple trees, peach trees, pair trees, cherry trees, and plum trees. All of which are available in miniture sizes if the land is tight. Rather than planting "grove style" you can plant sporadicly on the property and intermingle speices with the natural growth to the point that they are not noticeable to the untrained eye from a distance. LG> Between the deer and all, we get enough droppings to keep the LG> soil (sand and rocks) about as useful as practical, except for the LG> greenhouse area of course (we're not much on eating meat, so critters LG> are more of a burden than an asset.) The only animals we do want are LG> two dogs to guard the property and two cats to chomp on mousies. LG> Everyone's gotta' earn their keep..... Hmmm... vegiterians, hey? Well, actually the digesters will work on vegetable matter also. At least that is the theory. I have never seen one that was run onjust veggies. I have seen them that are run on just manure and a mixture of plant and manure. I like fruit and veggies myself but also plan to include goats or sheep, POSSIBLY a cow or two occasionally and a deffinate supply of rabbit. Rabbit and sheep are dual purpose animals. Meat and clothing. Rabbit fur is easily "tanned" and wool can be harvested. If you are expecting a long term stay before "normality" returns to the world these are things that should be kept in mind. Of course, being on or near large forested areas does allow for hunting for part of your survivial. You mentioned deer, so you do have a possible source. Just look out for those other foragers, they might sneak up behind you and do you harm to take your find from you. Never hunt alone, always have someone watch your back, fewer "hunting ACCIDENTS" that way. Big Dave * SLMR 2.1a * Decibel: A southern girl one better than a nine --- WM v3.11/92-0203 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* - 305-771-0041 (9:2500/2532) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 97 of 105 - 39 Loc From : Larry Gowdy 9:2500/0 Wed 27 Jul 94 19:46 To : Dave Paxton Subj : Re: Refrigerator Tips ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DP> are expecting to happen. If you are expecting a monitary collapse then DP> 40 acres is a good size. If DP> you are expecting a massive civil upriseing 40 acres might be too much DP> to guard, 5 acres might be good. If you are expecting a military take DP> over or dictatorship then 1 acre could suffice and it should enclude Yea, I think the definition of my term of 'survival/homestead' would be along the lines of monitary collapse (mainly my own, dropping out of the system). Lately it seems I'm growing less and less concerned about any major political disaster happening, and more on where I'm going to spend the rest of my life, and how I'm going to pay for basic expenses. DP> I personally lean twords 5 acres. It is enough to etch our a living if DP> you have to and is easily handeled by One man or a small family. On DP> the one acre you can have a small, well fortified, easily concealed DP> fall back location, just in case you need it. 5 acres does sound good for most all cases. One thing I like is being able to work every inch of the land, either gardening or landscaping, and that could actually turn into work with more than 5. On a one acre spot, what sort of septic system would you plan to use? Two acres is about minimum to keep a decent distance between a well and a normal septic drain field. Are there any good alternatives that would work well on one acre? I'm drawing up plans for another transpiration system for our's. Its basically a normal drain field, but almost above ground and sealed (sort of like a pool with gravel and dirt). That's the only useable system we can use in sandy soil. DP> A bordering lake or river could make it possible to live on an acre or DP> less. With a fair portion of you food comeing from the lake or river. That's what makes it so nice. We aren't limited hardly at all. We can choose from rabbit, catfish, deer, turkey, quail, pheasant, prarie chickens, garden veggies, or even rattlesnake, all within view. If we needed to leave the property for some emergency, we can take the road, the river, or cut across the open grazing lands on the other side of the river (well, we could if we first climbed the canyon sides). On one 20 acre section we had, we lived on 3 acres, and just walked around on the other 17. Like you said, the bigger it is, the harder it is to defend. City folk tend to think that any land beyond 20 feet of your house must be public land, and open for their entertainment. DP> I like the idea of haveing enough room for apple trees, peach trees, DP> pair trees, cherry trees, and plum trees. All of which are available DP> in miniture sizes if the land is tight. Rather than planting "grove DP> style" you can plant sporadicly on the property and intermingle speices DP> with the natural growth to the point that they are not noticeable to DP> the untrained eye from a distance. That's the one most important thing I'm wanting to do, is to do all planting in a fashion where it won't look out of the ordinary. This isn't an easy task where the native vegetation is buffalo grass, cotton woods, yucca plants, cactus, and salt cedar bushes. I'm thinking that dwarf trees may fit in unnoticed close to the cotton woods, but I really would like to have some trees just for firewood. Have you heard much on the genetically engineered tree they came up with a year or so ago? Its supposed to be similar to a birch I believe, it'll grow around 10' or more a year, can be planted very close, and is disease resistant. I have info on it somewhere, but haven't heard of how its doing. DP> Hmmm... vegiterians, hey? Not really on purpose, we just don't care much for the taste of meat too often, and I love animals so much, it'd have to be a time of extreme survival before I'd hunt. We're extremely active, and meat tends to slow us down. On top of that, I'm lazy and don't fancy the idea of feeding and caring for animals. ;) Animals can smell the difference between meat eaters and herbivores. Quail will fly down and land on your shoulder, but after having meat for dinner, they look at you funny and keep their distance for several days. This can work to your advantage or against it. Its good that you could hunt fowl and deer without any problem (I say hunt, but there's no need as most wild animals will walk right up to you), but the meat eating animals sense you as their game. Aside from coyotes and panthers, we don't have many meat eaters, so this isn't much of a problem. DP> Rabbit and sheep are DP> dual purpose animals. Meat and clothing. Rabbit fur is easily "tanned" DP> and wool can be harvested. If you are expecting a long term stay before DP> "normality" returns to the world these are things that should be kept DP> in mind. Are rabbits much trouble to keep? About how much area would a person need for a pen of 10 rabbits? If we ever do raise animals, rabbits would probably be it. If I can find a good market for Indian crafts, we'll be able to produce everything from the land's resources. I have my business hours cut down to around 10 hours a week right now, but I'm wanting to trim that on down to no more than 2 or 3. Once we get moved this time, and we can get the business set up to where we just have to go to town once every few weeks, the world could come to an end, and we probably wouldn't know it for a month. DP> Of course, being on or near large forested areas does allow for DP> hunting for part of your survivial. You mentioned deer, so you do have DP> a possible source. Just look out for those other foragers, they might DP> sneak up behind you and do you harm to take your find from you. Never DP> hunt alone, always have someone watch your back, fewer "hunting DP> ACCIDENTS" that way. I heard that! My wife and daughter are good shots, and I believe we're going to be capable of defending ourselves fairly well now. There's a possibility we may be buying an extra 12 acre spot up the river this winter, and both places have a natural recess into the sides of the hills where we can build a home that can't be seen until you're standing directly in front of it. Aircraft wouldn't even be able to make it out unless they saw the chimney pipe. We'll still be able to see out on three sides though, and keep an eye on all the land. That's one reason I want to keep everything looking normal, so as to not draw any unwanted attention. We're so tired of being in the city, we'd do just about anything to get back on some land. Once in a while, I'll hear a couple coyotes yelping in the distance at night, and some quail in the morning, and it makes me so homesick. I'll gladly trade this desk piled with papers for a quiet moment on a hill overlooking the river at sunrise, smelling the awesome violet cactus flower, hearing the hush of all Nature's critters as they make peace with one another to celebrate the new day, feeling the cool moist fog roll up off the river bed, and with my friendly quail standing next to me again, we wait in anticipation for the moment of the sun's fullness. Now I'm Really homesick! :) ... When wild turkeys come to watch you target shoot, you know you're tame ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- FMail/386 0.98a * Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- (9:2500/0) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 101 of 104 - 92 Uns Loc From : John Mudge 9:2500/0 Thu 28 Jul 94 12:06 To : Dave Paxton Subj : Survival Homesteads ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hello Dave! Sunday July 24 1994, Dave Paxton writes to Larry Gowdy: LG>> What size homestead would you recommend for a secluded survival LG>> spot? I tend to think 40 acres is minimum for an area where you don't DP> This is a difficult question to answere. It mostly depends on what you DP> are expecting to happen. If you are expecting a monitary collapse then DP> 40 acres is a good size. If you DP> are expecting a massive civil upriseing 40 acres might be too much to DP> guard, 5 acres might be good. If you are expecting a military take over DP> or dictatorship then 1 acre could suffice and it should enclude DP> fortification and concealability. DP> I personally lean twords 5 acres. It is enough to etch our a living if DP> you have to and is easily handeled by One man or a small family. On the DP> one acre you can have a small, well fortified, easily concealed fall DP> back location, just in case you need it. LG>> have access to a river or national park on one side (I hate being boxed LG>> in), but with a river or lake or such on one side, it almost seems a LG>> waste to have more than maybe 10 to 20 acres. The little spot we have DP> A bordering lake or river could make it possible to live on an acre or DP> less. With a fair portion of you food comeing from the lake or river. LG>> right now is just 6 acres, about perfect for two people without much of LG>> anything better to do than sit around watching the weather roll by, but LG>> still a tad too small to get the number of trees planted we need. DP> I like the idea of haveing enough room for apple trees, peach trees, DP> pair trees, cherry trees, and plum trees. All of which are available in DP> miniture sizes if the land is tight. Rather than planting "grove style" DP> you can plant sporadicly on the property and intermingle speices with DP> the natural growth to the point that they are not noticeable to the DP> untrained eye from a distance. I think I have covered my theories with you before on this question, but I believe it was prior to Larry joining us. I believe that the amount of land a person needs varies significantly depending on the area of the country you are in. In Larry's area, the Texas Panhandle, the native vegetation consists of prickly pear cactus an isolated mesquite trees for the most part. Although a couple of rivers flow through that area, the water table is quite low and irrigation is a necessity. I would tend toward recommending 40 acres for a small family. In my area the land is extremely productive and for the most part has no agricultural chemical residue. 5 acres here is quite adequate. A good method of assessing land needs would be to determine the sustainable level of annual biomass production and insert that into a formula that took into account food and firewood needs...plus an initial amount needed for construction materials. I do not have any real numbers to suggest, but will post this in SUST_AG echo to see if someone can come up with such a formula. John Mudge --- * Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V.32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- (9:2500/0)