id AA05316; Wed, 1 Mar 95 17:22:09 SAS Received: from I1/TEMPQ by i1.iplan.co.za (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 1 Mar 95 17:17:31 GMT+0200 Received: from TEMPQ by I1 (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 1 Mar 95 17:17:07 GMT+0200 From: "Mike Morris" Organization: Denel Informatics, Cape Reg Office To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:17:05 GMT+0200 Subject: Re: Getting Together Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <5603203516B@i1.iplan.co.za> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 743 Status: O X-Status: Don Bowen wrote: > One problem is that the community of the Internet is spread out over > the entire country No, no, Don -- the entire Planet Earth! :-) Still, I agree that getting together is a good idea... (from Mike in Cape Town, South Africa, planning to move out of the city as soon a practicality will allow.) +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Mike Morris We do not inherit the earth Denel Informatics (Cape) from our ancestors Mike.Morris@iplan.co.za ph: +27-21-788-4163 We borrow it from our children. +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 10:31:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12725; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:31:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA13873; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:37:46 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26736; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:31:01 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26646; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:30:58 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA21100 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:30:55 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA24169; Wed Mar 1 10:29:37 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503011529.AA24169@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Help Bank To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:29:37 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Andrew Evans" at Mar 1, 95 10:18 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 831 Status: O X-Status: > Any interest in setting up some regional help banks and/or cataloging > existing ones? I know I'd be willing to kick in some time in return for > help when I go to build my place. I'm planning on spending some time > on my brother's project in order to participate in that bank, but the > more the merrier. > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | > | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > Now your talking. thats communal participation. You got my vote. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 10:45:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20233; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:45:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA15553; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:51:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04880; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:39:43 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04762; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:39:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199503011539.AA04762@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2162; Wed, 01 Mar 95 10:38:31 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1239; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:38:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:38:29 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: Message of 03/01/95 at 08:18:56 from mikem@Plexus.COM Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 973 Status: O X-Status: On 03/01/95 at 08:18:56 Mike Mayer said: >Also, I think a well-fed cat is more likely to have more time and energy >to spend hunting around the barn for mice. They hunt out of instinct - >not just to eat. We have two barn cats that are kept well-fed and >healthy. They still go prowling around inside and outsode the barn >looking for mice. I would say it's always better to have a healthy >well-fed cat around. I would agree, and this is what I've heard from misc.rural as well. The best hunting cat we ever had always had a bowl of food on the back porch, a ready source of fresh water, and was an inveterate lap cat, a real laid-back sweetie. And she had the worst breath.... bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 10:59:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28153; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:59:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA17443; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:05:51 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18234; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:54:26 GMT Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18038; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:54:13 -0500 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18896; Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:56:15 EST Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22383; Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:55:07 EST Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17782; Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:55:03 EST Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:55:03 EST From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9503011555.AA17782@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Help Bank Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 380 Status: O X-Status: > Any interest in setting up some regional help banks and/or cataloging > existing ones? Sure! > I know I'd be willing to kick in some time in return for > help when I go to build my place. There also ought to be a category for people (like me) who are willing to help solely in return for the educational value. Barb barb@meaddata.com I don't speak for LEXIS-NEXIS. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 12:19:45 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16792; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:19:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA23520; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:25:47 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25154; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:52:53 GMT Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21567; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:46:22 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HNMAIGM68WDJ17UM@tntech.edu>; Wed, 01 Mar 1995 10:47:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 10:47:17 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: Help Bank To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNMAIGO1RMDJ17UM@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 326 Status: O X-Status: > > Any interest in setting up some regional help banks and/or cataloging > > existing ones? > > Sure! > There also ought to be a category for people (like me) who > are willing to help solely in return for the educational > value. > > Barb That's 2 females willing to help, but don't relegate us to the cooking! Pat From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 12:37:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22592; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:37:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA27922; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:42:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18356; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:32:19 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18287; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:32:01 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA14698 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:31:58 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:31:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199502281731.AA18170@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:31:57 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Evans" at Feb 28, 95 10:00:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 690 Status: RO X-Status: > Thinking about how valuable I found that experience to be, it dawned on > me that we could do something similar here, for homesteading in general. > Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - > active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get > them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of > us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be > willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? > As a prospective Homesteader, I would LOVE to come see some homes. I live in the Philly area over summers and vacations, and Go to school at State COllege, PA. - Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 13:05:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08767; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:05:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03102; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:12:04 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13268; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:55:39 GMT Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13185; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:55:31 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA00471 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 09:55:27 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Getting Together Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 09:56:28 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 30 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1403 Status: O X-Status: > Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - > active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get > them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of > us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be > willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? Sounds like an outstanding idea. This would be an educational experience for everyone involved. Count us in. Also, does anyone have a solution to vole and mice eating root crops. They keep going after our sun chokes and carrots. We have tried traps and cats so far. Someone said scatter ashes around the crops, but have not tried that yet. Any other ideas. Here is an idea for controlling moles and gophers that works fairly well. Many burrowing rodents have very sensitive noses and do not like burnt sulphur. So every spring we drive them out with simple home make sulphur smoke bombs. Just put them in the holes every few months, light and cover with dirt. The bombs are make out of potassium nitrate fertilizer, sugar, and sulphur. Add a little water, mix into a dough. Then roll up in newspaper tubes and bake in the sun. If you have kids, they go crazy running around and plugging up all the holes with smoke coming out. Good for half a day of fun. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 13:06:18 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08943; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:06:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03200; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:12:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25413; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:07:45 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25387; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:07:39 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA03293 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:07:33 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA23463; Tue Feb 28 13:06:18 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9502281806.AA23463@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:06:18 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Andrew Evans" at Feb 28, 95 10:00 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1184 Status: O X-Status: > > Thinking about how valuable I found that experience to be, it dawned on > me that we could do something similar here, for homesteading in general. > Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - > active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get > them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of > us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be > willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | > | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > Yeah sounds great, what did you see at the tour? what did you like? didn't like? Luddite, what is the definition of this? It sounds like anti-tech people but can someone elaborate? I see this in env. groups also. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 13:37:17 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25968; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:37:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA08513; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:43:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11798; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:25:40 GMT Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11753; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:25:36 -0500 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16725; Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:27:44 EST Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20099; Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:26:34 EST Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15745; Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:26:31 EST Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:26:31 EST From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9502281826.AA15745@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Getting Together Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1090 Status: O X-Status: > > Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - > > active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get > > them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of > > us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be > > willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? Here's a "Yes!" vote from one of the wannabees. I'm teetering on the brink of "Should I do it? When? How? Can I?" Seeing the things I'm thinking about Actually Being Done would help my self-confidence a lot. A group I belong to (pay dues to, anyway), Ohio Environmental Food & Farmers, does something along the same lines, called farm tours. They do a couple of them a year, I think, and feature organic farms, often those doing something a little different (raising spelt, using "Australian"? rotational grazing, an Amish farm, etc.). They seem to be very well received. I've never gone to one - how much nicer it would be to visit the homesteads of "friends" we already know via Internet! Barb From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 13:37:19 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26062; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:37:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA08573; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:43:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16938; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:31:16 GMT Received: from postman.osf.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16885; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:31:11 -0500 Received: from app1.osf.org (app1.osf.org [130.105.3.117]) by postman.osf.org (8.6.9/8.6.x) with ESMTP id NAA11409; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:31:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199502281831.NAA11409@postman.osf.org> To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: paulg@osf.org Subject: Re: Getting Together In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:06:18 EST." <9502281806.AA23463@pms923.pms.ford.com> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:31:07 -0500 From: Paul Girouard Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1577 Status: O X-Status: In message <9502281806.AA23463@pms923.pms.ford.com>you write: =>> =>> Thinking about how valuable I found that experience to be, it dawned on =>> me that we could do something similar here, for homesteading in general. =>> Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - =>> active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get =>> them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of =>> us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be =>> willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? =>> =>> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ =>> | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | =>> | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | =>> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ =>> | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | =>> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ =>> =>> =>Yeah sounds great, what did you see at the tour? =>what did you like? didn't like? => =>Luddite, what is the definition of this? It sounds like anti-tech people =>but can someone elaborate? I see this in env. groups also. => => Ludd-ite \'led-,[0xF5]^-t\ n [Ned Ludd supposed Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery] (1811) :one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest; broadly :one who is opposed to esp. technological change -Paul From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 14:06:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13586; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:06:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA13589; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:12:54 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19731; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:06:15 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19704; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:06:13 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA06895 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:06:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199502281906.LAA06895@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:05:48 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: technology quote X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 599 Status: RO X-Status: This came by in an internet class session today. "Technology... the knack of so arranging the world that we need not experience it." -Max Frisch, "Homo Faber" This could be a defining point. Use technology to get a better understanding of the world, not to insulate yourself from it. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 14:06:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13615; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:06:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA13622; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:13:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17759; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:03:59 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17707; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:03:58 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA06368 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:03:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199502281903.LAA06368@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:03:32 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Getting Together X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 827 Status: RO X-Status: >I've never gone to one - how much nicer it would be to visit the homesteads >of "friends" we already know via Internet! One problem is that the community of the Internet is spread out over the entire country. The subcommunity of the homestead list is very thin on the ground. I live in San Diego County CA, most who responded live in OH, PA or some other east coast location. Might it be better to extend some sort of open invitation or to at least indicate you would not mind having some give a call when in the area? Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 14:22:24 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23528; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:22:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA15919; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:28:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27113; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:15:18 GMT Received: from luga.latrobe.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27055; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:15:13 -0500 Received: from lux.latrobe.edu.au (lux.latrobe.edu.au [131.172.4.3]) by luga.latrobe.edu.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA20254 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:15:10 +1100 Received: by lux.latrobe.edu.au (5.67a/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA01807; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:15:09 +1100 Message-Id: <199502281915.AA01807@lux.latrobe.edu.au> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:15:09 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502281831.NAA11409@postman.osf.org> from "Paul Girouard" at Feb 28, 95 01:31:07 pm From: dwayne@leri.edu (Dwayne) Organisation: NEXUS-melbourne. X-Url: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/dwayne.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1132 Status: O X-Status: I peeled a grape, and found that Paul Girouard had written upon it: : Ludd-ite \'led-,[0xF5]^-t\ n : [Ned Ludd supposed Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery] : (1811) : :one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving : machinery as a protest; broadly : :one who is opposed to esp. technological change The thing is, though, they weren't mindless fools railing against technology, they were a group of people who realised that the industrial revolution was destroying their traditional way of life, and took steps to prevent it. It's a shame that their movement became trivialised, but that's the way of history, I guess. Dwayne. -------> dwayne@leri.edu <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" Dwayne ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 14:35:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03105; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:35:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA18088; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:41:43 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09521; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:30:21 GMT Received: from ANDREW.CMU.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09404; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:30:14 -0500 Received: (from postman@localhost) by andrew.cmu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA14285 for homestead@world.std.com; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:30:09 -0500 Received: via switchmail; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:30:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:29:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.4.170.Jan.26.1995.20.06.54.sun4c.411.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c_411; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:29:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:29:34 -0500 (EST) From: James Michael Kocher To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Getting Together In-Reply-To: <199502281903.LAA06368@qualcomm.com> References: <199502281903.LAA06368@qualcomm.com> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 434 Status: O X-Status: This sounds like a good idea, but could be taken to the next step. People who are interested in visiting homesteads, myself included, would probally learn more by taking part in the random list of chores that are a daily part of life in these environments. I am not opposed to work, and find I generally learn better that way also. Why not set up work/visit days? -Jim, living in Pittsburgh PA and dreaming of homesteading . . . From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 14:51:23 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13691; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:51:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA19984; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:55:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18134; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:41:15 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18090; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:41:13 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA25921 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:41:09 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA23557; Tue Feb 28 14:39:54 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9502281939.AA23557@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: technology quote To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 14:39:54 EST In-Reply-To: <199502281906.LAA06895@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Feb 28, 95 11:05 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1569 Status: RO X-Status: > > This came by in an internet class session today. > > "Technology... the knack of so arranging the world that we need not > experience it." Very true, those lost experiences like hiking without a trail and sings only wits, and a compass are important. We learn to use primal instincts to watch, and listen, in alot of different ways. > > -Max Frisch, "Homo Faber" > > This could be a defining point. Use technology to get a better > understanding of the world, not to insulate yourself from it. Cool! I might agree as well, though I must say I've recently returned from Oregon Coast and it's tech-no-logic that whacked OUR old growth forests. I now have a much deeper appreciation for the real forests that are left. It's even hard to think of using wood for fuel. I am sure i'll go a different route when the time comes. I think the days of massive wood heat are kinda over. There is just to much poor air to resort to old energies. But! hey, I'll also agree with some previous post by someone who stated self-sufficiency in terms of "doing it alone" i.e emediate family is the hard way. I have some people in Oregon who want to get together, and do it. We'll do it as a small community. And most likely *slowly* ween ourselves off the techno- addiction with time. Ya just can't walk away from it. IT'S AND ADDICTION, AND IT'S HOOKS ARE DEEP. But i must confess it will be those few isolated technologies that will get us off the power grid. But i still would like a definition of a luddite. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 16:06:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02124; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:06:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA01159; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:11:54 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11541; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 20:46:15 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11473; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:46:13 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA11612 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:46:10 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA23642; Tue Feb 28 15:44:56 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9502282044.AA23642@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 15:44:55 EST In-Reply-To: <199502281944.LAA13392@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Feb 28, 95 11:43 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1187 Status: O X-Status: > > The movement was tivialized because the larger socirty saw good in > the new looms and saw no value in the traditional craft. The new looms made > clothing afordable. THe lower classes in the cities rarely had new clothes. > THey lived off the castoffs from the rich. Card controlled looms allowed > the middle class to afford brocade(sp?). Powered looms made cloth in > general affordable. Life was made better for some because they could afford > such things as overcoats and underwear. The act of consumption became more > important than the act of production. > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Agreed. I think classes are a key word here, as we know it was technology and the monopolising of such that caused the stratification of people to begin with (beginning in Europe). the problem of good/bad scenarios for technology have to be put into a bigger picture. And i'm not sure it's even worth debating what was and *is*. Just that we need to use some kind of criteria for deciding whats *really* needed and what is simply another shiney object for our desire. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 16:50:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29731; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:50:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA08409; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:56:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08964; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 21:43:20 GMT Received: from oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08941; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:43:19 -0500 Received: (from cfrieden@localhost) by oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id QAA07611 for homestead@world.std.com; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:43:15 -0500 From: Christopher Friedenberg Message-Id: <199502282143.QAA07611@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:43:14 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9502282044.AA23642@pms923.pms.ford.com> from "Karl Henning" at Feb 28, 95 03:44:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1926 Status: O X-Status: > The movement was tivialized because the larger socirty saw good in > the new looms and saw no value in the traditional craft. The new looms made > clothing afordable. THe lower classes in the cities rarely had new clothes. > THey lived off the castoffs from the rich. Card controlled looms allowed > the middle class to afford brocade(sp?). Powered looms made cloth in > general affordable. Life was made better for some because they could afford > such things as overcoats and underwear. The act of consumption became more > important than the act of production. > > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Agreed. > > I think classes are a key word here, as we know it was technology > and the monopolising of such that caused the stratification of people > to begin with (beginning in Europe). > the problem of good/bad scenarios for technology have to be > put into a bigger picture. And i'm not sure it's even worth debating what > was and *is*. Just that we need to use some kind of criteria for deciding > whats *really* needed and what is simply another shiney object for our > desire. Eh? The previous example showed how technology De-stratified the classes. Allowing the lower classes to emulate their "superiors", etc. etc...or if you prefer Re-stratified...allowing those willing to master the new technology to become wealthy and powerful by offering goods and services of quality at lower cost. But, you pays yer money and take your choices... We probably all have our idiosyncratic criteria for appropriate technology. Mine are mostly based on economy, efficency, and utility, with the occasional aesthetic flourish...but these are personal choices and perhaps we should leave it at that... Speaking of tech: anyone have any experience or interest in construction of slip-form stone houses? I've been working on a few designs in my spare time... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 14:52:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14621; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:52:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA20014; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:55:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20328; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:44:09 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20295; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:44:07 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA13392 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:44:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199502281944.LAA13392@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:43:42 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Getting Together X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1709 Status: RO X-Status: > >I peeled a grape, and found that Paul Girouard had written upon it: > >: Ludd-ite \'led-,[0xF5]^-t\ n >: [Ned Ludd supposed Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery] >: (1811) >: :one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving >: machinery as a protest; broadly >: :one who is opposed to esp. technological change A quick aside here. One method of destroying the looms was to throw the wooden shoes known as sabots into the works. From this we have the word sabotage. >The thing is, though, they weren't mindless fools railing against >technology, they were a group of people who realised that the industrial >revolution was destroying their traditional way of life, and took steps to >prevent it. It's a shame that their movement became trivialised, but that's >the way of history, I guess. > The movement was tivialized because the larger socirty saw good in the new looms and saw no value in the traditional craft. The new looms made clothing afordable. THe lower classes in the cities rarely had new clothes. THey lived off the castoffs from the rich. Card controlled looms allowed the middle class to afford brocade(sp?). Powered looms made cloth in general affordable. Life was made better for some because they could afford such things as overcoats and underwear. The act of consumption became more important than the act of production. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 27 14:19:19 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05888; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:19:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA19138; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:25:04 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22832; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 19:17:52 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22812; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:17:51 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA175552668; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:17:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:17:48 -0500 From: AlbionSeed@aol.com Message-Id: <950227141747_33837331@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Introduction Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 279 Status: RO X-Status: Larry, I'm Larry also and am interested in your forageing. I took an Edible Wild Plants class at Loma Linda University, recently and it was great! I believe, however, this must be a lifelong study to benefit from it. I would be interested in your projects. Larry (AlbionSeed) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 06:16:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22081; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:16:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA05375; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:12:15 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26473; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:12:04 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26437; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:12:03 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA074583916; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:11:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:11:56 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950310061155_45135716@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Bread machines Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 464 Status: RO X-Status: Looks like we're back to the question of how much technology. And while the theraputic value of kneading dough is valid, it can also be done with turn compost, or slabbing clay, or other activities, all while your bread is baked. Seesm to me that the main reason for making your own bread is controlling what goes into that loaf. Bread machines don't make any difference in that. So using them, like so many other things, becomes a matter of personal choice. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 06:16:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22081; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:16:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA05375; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:12:15 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26473; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:12:04 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26437; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:12:03 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA074583916; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:11:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:11:56 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950310061155_45135716@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Bread machines Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 464 Status: RO X-Status: Looks like we're back to the question of how much technology. And while the theraputic value of kneading dough is valid, it can also be done with turn compost, or slabbing clay, or other activities, all while your bread is baked. Seesm to me that the main reason for making your own bread is controlling what goes into that loaf. Bread machines don't make any difference in that. So using them, like so many other things, becomes a matter of personal choice. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 10:12:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13516; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:12:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27284; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:07:54 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29046; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:07:56 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28981; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:07:53 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA27063 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:07:45 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA09744; Fri Mar 10 10:05:58 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503101505.AA09744@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Bread machines To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 10:05:57 EST In-Reply-To: <950310061155_45135716@aol.com>; from "LCSkinner@aol.com" at Mar 10, 95 6:11 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 926 Status: O X-Status: > > Looks like we're back to the question of how much technology. And while the > theraputic value of kneading dough is valid, it can also be done with turn > compost, or slabbing clay, or other activities, all while your bread is > baked. > Seesm to me that the main reason for making your own bread is controlling > what goes into that loaf. Bread machines don't make any difference in that. > So using them, like so many other things, becomes a matter of personal > choice. > Yeah your probably write on that. It would be different if we had nothing else to do but homestead every day and drove into town 1/mth or something (someday). But time is valuable. I wish I could get my companion to learn to shut power off when not in use, major bad habit). But the offset is she works the garden while I turn the compost and make bread, she makes the vegy soups, etc. Distributed multi-tasking if you will. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 13:48:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA06456; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:48:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA17917; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:42:45 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14876; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:42:47 -0500 Received: from rowe.williams.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14832; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:42:43 -0500 Received: from hancock (hancock.cc.williams.edu) by rowe.williams.edu with SMTP id AA26462 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:42:36 -0500 Received: from sawyer_refdesk.williams.edu by hancock (4.1/client-1.3) id AA24165; Fri, 10 Mar 95 13:42:34 EST Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 13:42:34 EST Message-Id: <9503101842.AA24165@hancock> X-Sender: jchamay@popserver.williams.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: Julie.Z.Chamay@williams.edu (Julie Chamay) Subject: Re: Bread & Chickens X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1128 Status: RO X-Status: Sandpeep wrote: >seems that even though a lot smaller than cows, pigs really tear up the >ground due to the "loading" on their little feet -PSI (Pigs/Square Inch?) We had two pigs, Bob and Ray, on this duty last year. They were on weedy ground in the garden, and cleared it all with snout power. >They also did a number rooting up the soil looking for? Grubs, roots, whatever. >One problem that I saw that wasn't addressed was how to >keep a supply of water out on a movable cage that the pig wouldn't tip over. We used really long hoses. > (Pictures showed them "plowing" to keep weeds down between rows in an >orchard. - didn't pay it much mind, as Masanobu Fukoka in ONE STRAW >REVOLUTION proposed the pigs just run free (after the orchard is well >established) I believe that in the U.S. colonial period, the pigs did in fact run free, and were periodically herded up and butchered. We only moved Bob and Ray a few times and it was always an adventure. We're thinking chickens would be easier in a more remote location. Julie Z. Chamay Reference Librarian Sawyer Library, Williams College jchamay@williams.edu From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 19:50:52 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03061; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:50:52 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA23625; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:49:06 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04403; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:49:04 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04393; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:49:02 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA21056 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:48:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:48:55 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Call for Hosts To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1430 Status: RO X-Status: Hi all- OK, here's the official call for hosts for the Great Homestead Mailing List Asynchronous Homestead Tour. Basically, if you live on a homestead now and don't mind having a bunch of nice mailing list folks dropping by from time-to-time (prearranged, of course) to observe or even help out, send me the info listed below, and I'll maintain the master list. From time-to-time I'll post the list to the group, esp. if there are changes, or you can get the list by emailing me directly at aevans@cais.com. All you folks who've already sent me mail offering to participate - Thanks! Go ahead and send this to me anyway though. Here's what I need: Your Name: Contact phone #: email: County and State: (You don't have to give your full address - that way folks will have to call you first to arrange a visit) I am willing to have folks (circle one) Just Visit Help Out Around The Place For A Day I know, it's hard to circle one electronically. You'll figure something out ;). +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 19:54:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04493; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:54:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA24282; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:52:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05705; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:52:25 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05688; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:52:23 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA21274 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:52:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:52:16 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: RG Tour '95 To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 852 Status: RO X-Status: While we're on the subject of tours - I got something from Real Goods the other day announcing the Third Annual RG Remote Homes Tour. It will be on October 14 from 10-3 this year. As the date approaches later in the year, you can contact RG to get a list of the participants in your region. The whole thing is free (except for your travel time) and immensely enjoyable (I did it last year, as you may know by now). +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 22:48:39 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03851; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:48:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA11584; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:52:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09657; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:52:23 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09641; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:52:21 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA147063932; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:52:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:52:13 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950310224946_45899266@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: break even on bread cookers Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 188 Status: RO X-Status: Our bread from the bread machine has plenty of stay. I'm a large man with an appetite to match. But a could slabs of my wife's bread and a cup of coffee, and I'm good until evening meal. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 11 11:02:22 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14227; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 11:02:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQygps25486; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 11:05:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06790; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 11:03:38 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06774; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 11:03:36 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HO07W215K0DNY0OJ@tntech.edu>; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 10:05:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 10:05:52 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: Call for Hosts To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HO07W23KCYDNY0OJ@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 396 Status: RO X-Status: > Here's what I need: > > Your Name: Pat Lenzo > > Contact phone #: (615)858-3015 evenings and weekends > > email: PBL5890@TNTECH.edu > > County and State: Putnam County, TN > (You don't have to give your full address - that way folks will have to > call you first to arrange a visit) > > I am willing to have folks (circle one) > *Just Visit* > *Help Out Around The Place For A Day* From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 11 13:29:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29801; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:29:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQygqc29414; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:32:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28474; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:30:28 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28454; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:30:26 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA11766 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 10:30:18 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Homestead tools Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 09:32:42 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 36 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1891 Status: RO X-Status: Previously I posted a description of a shovel-hoe tool, but my description of it was not very good and I could tell from the comments that the concept was lost. So here is more info. The tool has a handle about five feet long and is made from a regular shovel. The idea is that when you swing it the impact has tremendous force. The long handle also means that you can work standing up. Otherwise after a few minutes your back would get tired. The blade (shovel) must be curved or it bends on impact. The sides are sharpended to cut vines or anything it happens to hit. Its primary purpose is to move dirt, but if that dirt has roots, sticks, or vines around that is their tough luck. If you walk up to a pile of sticks or vines, they are history. I hit a red brick once and it dinged up the blade, but that brick was in two pieces. Another homestead tool which is very useful is a brush scythe. We get brush around here which is full of brambles and tough weeds. Sometimes the whole mess is over six foot high. Most of the neighbors hire a dozer or spray and burn. But our brush is sometimes on steep slopes and I prefer working without power equipment or chemicals. We tried the curved brush hooks, but they didn't do well with tall grass. We tried the scythes from the hardware store, but they lasted about two minutes. Finally, we found Seymor. Seymor is a company that makes hand tools. Our local hardware store found a brush scythe in their catalog and did a special order. Wow, it works. It is rugged enough to cut small trees and light enough to go after weeds and grass. The tool uses a wide thin blade about 18 inches long, bolted to a handle. The metal quality of my first one was such that I could chop down small trees and it would always spring back into shape. The newer ones are not quite as good, but they still work. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 11 13:29:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29802; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:29:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQygqc29410; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:32:13 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28487; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:30:31 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28481; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:30:29 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA11779 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 10:30:20 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Call for Hosts Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 09:42:11 -0500 Message-Id: <3RROlS9cpUWB069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: Lines: 10 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 294 Status: RO X-Status: > Here's info. for the call for hosts: > > Your Name: Jeff Owens > Contact phone #: (503) 630 2317 > County and State: Clackamas, Oregon > > I am willing to have folks (circle one) > Just Visit <-- that one > Help Out Around The Place For A Day <-- From news@bigblue.oit.unc.edu Sun Mar 12 19:50:44 1995 Return-Path: Received: from bigblue.oit.unc.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA21892; Sun, 12 Mar 1995 19:50:44 -0500 Received: by bigblue.oit.unc.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26392; Sun, 12 Mar 1995 19:35:56 -0500 Received: from GATEWAY by bigblue.oit.unc.edu with netnews for london@sunsite.unc.edu (london@sunsite.unc.edu) To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 23:36:45 GMT From: "Clyde R. Visser, KD6GWN" Message-Id: <14509.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> Sender: london@sunsite.unc.edu Reply-To: "Clyde R. Visser, KD6GWN" Subject: Re: Carla Emery content-length: 606 Status: RO X-Status: D From: miknel@wseo.wa.gov (Mike Nelson) It was in Idaho on the clearwater river. She still lives there. in the town of Deery I believe. She just had a new version of her book published by sasquatch press of Seattle Washington ---------- Can anyone tell me what happened to Carla Emery? She had a school "The School for Counrty Living" some place in the northeast. She was featured in "The Mother Earth News" several times and wrote a "cookbook" that covered just about everything about living off of the land. I would like to know how to contact her if possible and any news about her. RE: Carla Emery From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 12 21:31:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24600; Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:31:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA20414; Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:34:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22138; Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:34:25 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19310; Sun, 12 Mar 1995 21:29:29 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00601 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:HOMESTEAD@world.std.com>; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:28:54 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa11323; 11 Mar 95 18:03 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Fri, 10 Mar 1995 18:42:03 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 18:42:01 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f602cfb.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: Homestead list Subject: Re; Sources of Organic grain Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1758 Status: RO X-Status: This has got to be a local thing - so find the nearest organic farmers, or organic growers group, and tap into them. Or the local Permaculture group. Or find the nearest grain farmer, and tell him that you want to buy some organic grain - and then use this to start a CSA in your area.. I bet you could make a good profit for you and the farmer by growing say 10 tons of organic wheat, storing it in a bin on the farm, and on-selling it in say 10 and 25 Kg bags at local markets. We were happy to pay $30 (Australian) for 25 Kg of organic, wholemeal, stone ground flour, whereas white pap can be got for 90c/Kg. Guess how much more profit the farmer made selling to us direct?? He was probably netting about 80c/Kg more. Or about $800/tonne. What is a farmer currently getting? I'm not in the game, so my figures could be corrected, but I reckon they are of the following order: In Australia, with no subsidies, but a poor harvest in the Eastern States, farmers are grossing about $150/tonne, for a nett of about $20/tonne, for FAQ wheat. So if he splits the $800, and spends $100 on bags, marketing, etc, the nett to the farmer is still in the order of $300/tonne which is a damn sight better off than the traditional sales mechanism which netts $20/tonne. One of the most successful biodynamic farmers in Australia, Gavin Dunn, has joined up with others in his district to buy and run a mill... -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 02:32:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19415; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:32:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA24673; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:36:57 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14820; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:36:49 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14797; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:36:32 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA01405 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:HOMESTEAD@world.std.com>; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:59:17 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa02258; 13 Mar 95 14:57 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:23:38 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:23:36 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f63baba.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: Homestead list Subject: "Come visit and help out" Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1023 Status: RO X-Status: Before you get too far down the track, please check out WWOOFERS Willing Workers on Organic Farms. They have extended their operations to save us setting up a similar network we were going to call Woppers (Willing Workers on Permaculture Properties) because many permies don't have "farms". But discussions led to them running the network, and permaculturists coming into it. While it depends on each host, the general understanding is that half a day's work is matched by a full day's board. So someone visiting can work for a week, and enjoy local tourism attractions for a week, etc. Good permaculture principle: If something already present meets most of your requirements, save energy, just adapt. -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 02:33:52 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19624; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:33:52 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA24713; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:37:28 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14914; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:37:16 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14828; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:36:51 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA01402 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:HOMESTEAD@world.std.com>; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:59:15 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa02250; 13 Mar 95 14:57 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:17:40 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:17:39 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f63b955.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: Homestead list Subject: "Just Visit" Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1054 Status: RO X-Status: One of things we (the Land Management Society - a group of innovative farmers and friends) have found necessary here is to have specific days set aside for the visitors. Or you spend all your time showing them the work projects you are going to get around to.. Another thing we are exploring here is charging visitors a little. One way is to have a small information pack available at a price that yields you something. Another is to charge a busload or carload fee. Another is to encourage people to become members of your favourite alternative farming organisation. The fee has two objectives: one is to leave you feeling good about the time visitors can take, the other is to convince them that what they have learned is to be valued. -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 02:34:43 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19769; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:34:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA24741; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:37:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14954; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:37:30 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14922; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:37:18 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA01407 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:HOMESTEAD@world.std.com>; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:59:18 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa02264; 13 Mar 95 14:57 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:33:18 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:33:16 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f63bcfe.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: Homestead list Subject: "Helping Out" Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2175 Status: RO X-Status: Before you spend too much energy setting up a visiting network, please check out WWOOFERS - WIlling Workers on Organic Farms. They have a well established world wide network which has worked for years connecting peopel who want to learn and people who would host them. Their basic idea is that half a day's work earns full day's bed and board. So someone can work for a week, and tour for a week. For homesteading, soem other trade could be worthwhile considering; eg two weeks work during harvest gives two weeks free holiday later in the year. etc The laziness principle applies: If some present organisation, structure, or tool can meet most of your needs, don't set up, administer or buy another one. Please contact the various national groups direct they have their own ways of working." INTEGRAL, Co-ordinadora de Agric. ecologica, Apdo 2580, 08080 Barcelona, Spain NEWWOOF, New England Small Farms Institute, PO Box 937, Belchertown, MA 01007, USA VHH, (Alternative Travel Club), Ingra Nielsen, Asanvej 35, 9881 Bindslev, Denmark WWOOF (AUS), Lionel Pollard, W Treee, BUchan, Victoria, 3885, Australia. WOOF (Canada), John Van Den Heuvel, RR2 Carlson Raod, Nelson, BC, V1L 5P5, Canada. WWOOF (Germany), c/- Stettiner Str 3, 6301, Pohleim, Germany WWOOF (Ireland), Annie Sampson, Crowhill, Newgrove, Tulla, Co Clare, Ireland. WWOOF International, Lionel Pollard, W Tree, Buchan, Vic, 3885, Aust. WWOOF (New Zealand), Jane Strange, PO Box 10-037, Palmerston North, New Zealand. WWOOF (Switzerland), c/- Patrick Bill, Speerstr 7, 8305 Dietlikon, Switzerland. WWOOF (UK), Don Pynches, 19 Bradford Road, Lewes, Sussex BN17 1RB, United Kingdom. 'WWOOF Australia's World List' lists volunteer work opportunities in parts of the world not covered by other groups. Send AUD5 (members), 10 AUD (non-members) to WWOOF Australia. -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 11:26:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19676; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:26:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQygxd06219; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:26:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08054; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:25:00 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08013; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:24:58 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA19107 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:24:47 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Food Systems Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:33:48 -0500 Message-Id: Lines: 47 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1980 Status: RO X-Status: We have been trying to produce most of our food for a few years and have found it to be a challenge. So I thought it might be interesting to talk about food systems. In the last few years a lot of the tools, techniques, plants, and concepts have changed. We now have new concepts such as permacutlure, ecology, sustainability, pollution, organic growing, Integrated Pest Management, etc. This presents two problems. 1. Finding and understanding information. 2. Applying information in a useful way. For example, the US government finally recognized that our basic ideas about nutrition was wrong, so they revised the food charts. If we apply this information to food production, it says that animals are less important to food production, and grains, vegetables, fruit are more important. Permaculture is telling us that us to utilize permanent plantings for food. They argue that it is better for the ecology, and is less work. To back up their claims they have identified some of the important plants and sent teachers around the world. Most of these new ideas are ideal for homesteaders. In fact it may be possible to make homesteading easier by using some of this research. So I have used these ideas to make some predictions. Hopefully this might create some discussion. 1. Homesteading will trend away from using animals for food in the areas of meat and dairy. 2. Homestead plantings will include more permanent plantings which are disease and pest resistant. 3. Homestead plantings will become more diverse, and mono cropping will become less popular. 4. When the oil starts running out, the price of food will go up and homesteading will once again become a viable economic unit. 5. Areas with worn out soil will be converted to tree crops and other hardy plantings. This will give rise to a new class of agriculture/homestead. Well, this is getting too long so I'll quit here. Any comments? Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 12:44:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18564; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:44:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA14125; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:42:32 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28019; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:42:32 -0500 Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28004; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:42:30 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:40:25 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:42:33 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: Re: Food Systems Message-Id: <1417020471-16520105@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 754 Status: RO X-Status: I have trouble with the phrase "permaculture". I have come to belive in crop rotation, even for small areas. If by "permaculture" you are implying keeping the same garden beds, or keeping an area in say berrys for a few years, thats fine, but to imply that you can just plant one thing one time and let it go, well I tried blackberrys in one spot. Put then in in '79, and they blighted out last year when the farm got + 54" of rainfall (soggy year) from some sort of fungal problem. I planted the area in vetch and will let it go to seed/run wild for a year or three to build up some nitrogen, and then till it all in for biomass and try again. I will not put in the same variety of berrys, as the soil will harbor fungal infestation for years to come. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 13:43:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12417; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:43:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA01032; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:45:23 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11533; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:45:25 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11500; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:45:22 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA13045 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:45:07 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Food Systems Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:39:30 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199503131653.IAA25680@qualcomm.com> Lines: 46 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2182 Status: RO X-Status: Donald E. Bowen wrote: > The Internet is one way to spread this information through such things as this mail list. Getting your hands dirty, trying something new every year and keeping recored. The reality is that most will have to generate some form of outside income. Small holdings will barely pay the taxes. Animals take constant care and it is not possible to put off the care until a more convient time. Diverse plantings spread out the work and the income. Diverse plantings mean a much longer production period. For a single family this means reduced storage requirements. Home production is currently viable. Reasonable amounts of inputs to home production can return significant profits. These profits may not be from cash income from selling produce but from offsetting purchases. With the current taxing structure, $1 offsets $1.50 earned. Jeff Responds: Don all your ideas look good to me. The last part about homesteading being economically viable is a tough one. In the 1800's it was the dominant economic system and today it barely visible. What interests me is the trend. Some people think it will continue to decline or hold even, and others see it as a wave of the future. If it is the wave of the future then what will a future homesteader look like? Knowing that could be both interesting and useful. Donald E. Bowen wrote: Trees have the advantage that they put down deep roots which pull up nutrients unavailable to shallow rooted plants. The disadvantage is that production can be years from planting. An advantage in more urban settings is that trees can blend in with the other landscaping. Jeff Responds: Yes, trees are hardier and can be utilized in dryer areas. Another advantage is that tree care seems to fit into a homestead environment better than intensive row crops. Automation was only able to deal with a few of the tree crops successfully, but the homesteader can utilize trees much easier. There is new interest commercially in chestnuts and some people think the paw paw has potential. It will be interesting to see what develops. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 11:52:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29309; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:52:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA01247; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:53:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24671; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:53:31 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24645; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:53:29 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id IAA25680 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:53:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199503131653.IAA25680@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:52:50 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Food Systems X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2255 Status: RO X-Status: > 1. Finding and understanding information. The Internet is one way to spread this information through such things as this mail list. > 2. Applying information in a useful way. Getting your hands dirty, trying something new every year and keeping recored. >1. Homesteading will trend away from using animals for food in the areas > of meat and dairy. The reality is that most will have to generate some form of outside income. Small holdings will barely pay the taxes. Animals take constant care and it is not possible to put off the care until a more convient time. >2. Homestead plantings will include more permanent plantings which > are disease and pest resistant. > >3. Homestead plantings will become more diverse, and mono cropping > will become less popular. Diverse plantings spread out the work and the income. Diverse plantings mean a much longer production period. For a single family this means reduced storage requirements. >4. When the oil starts running out, the price of food will go up > and homesteading will once again become a viable economic unit. Home production is currently viable. Reasonable amounts of inputs to home production can return significant profits. These profits may not be from cash income from selling produce but from offsetting purchases. With the current taxing structure, $1 offsets $1.50 earned. >5. Areas with worn out soil will be converted to tree crops and > other hardy plantings. This will give rise to a new class > of agriculture/homestead. Trees have the advantage that they put down deep roots which pull up nutrients unavailable to shallow rooted plants. The disadvantage is that production can be years from planting. An advantage in more urban settings is that trees can blend in with the other landscaping. >Well, this is getting too long so I'll quit here. Any comments? > >Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 13 19:29:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23947; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:29:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA03229; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:20:29 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02039; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:20:31 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02005; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:20:29 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA28845 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:20:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:20:19 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Food Systems(Meat) To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9503132255.AA16202@pms923.pms.ford.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1383 Status: RO X-Status: Well, like I said before, most homesteaders currently make use of animals around the place, and that works fine. My point was that it also works fine to *not* have animals around the place. Even with spent soil, and no chemical fertilizers. I direct your attention to the 60+ years of animal-free, organic subsistance farming done by Helen and Scott Nearing, in poor, rocky New England soils - they bought "spent" farmland that made their neighbors snicker, until they saw the yields the Nearings were getting. The trick was to get serious about composting and bed rotation. Granted, it took alot of work, but it does no matter which way you do it. Sure saves on vet bills, winter feed, etc. though. To anyone who still thinks you *have* to have animals, I highly recommend picking up the Nearing's books. And to those of you who think you'll get too thin eating vegetarian, you haven't spent a couple of years on my wife's cooking ;) +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 10:35:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18812; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:35:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA20555; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:24:13 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07185; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:24:15 -0500 Received: from olympus.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07158; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:24:13 -0500 Received: from pratt.olympus.net (ptpm012.olympus.net [198.133.237.42]) by olympus.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA26065 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:24:34 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 07:10:56 PST From: Chris and Kim Pratt Subject: Cream Separator To: homestead@world.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 489 Status: RO X-Status: I have just picked up an older hand-cranked cream separator. It appears to have been made around the fifties, though I'm not exactly sure. We want to use it in our dairy. I'd like to try to find some information on it like an operators manual or even just a break-down schematic so that I can determine if it is all there (I've never used one before). Here is the make and model: FarmMaster Model 338.41 Sears & Roebuck Company Any info would be MUCH appreciated! Kim From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 10:37:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20020; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:37:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22094; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:34:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13891; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:34:23 -0500 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13872; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:34:21 -0500 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA04960 for homestead@world.std.com; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:34:08 -0500 Received: via switchmail; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs9.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:32:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs9.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.4.170.Jan.26.1995.20.06.54.sun4c.411.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs9.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs9.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c_411; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:32:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:32:19 -0500 (EST) From: James Michael Kocher To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Cream Separator Cc: In-Reply-To: References: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 96 Status: RO X-Status: Have you tried contacting Sears? They may still able to supply information about this product. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 10:48:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24970; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:48:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA23666; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:48:22 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22272; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:48:28 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22249; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:48:26 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA07617 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:48:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199503141548.HAA07617@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:45:51 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Energy Systems X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2207 Status: RO X-Status: >Historically, the energy situtation has worked against >homesteading. Internal combustion engines and automation >encouraged large efficient farms, packaging, and distribution >systems. The cost of energy was low, so products were >shipped around the world and it was more efficient to have >large equipment and large fields. But two developments may >change things: > > 1. The cost of developing oil reserves will start increasing > at some point in the future. The cost of development is already high. Look at the cost of the north slope and the north sea. New fields are being found but depth, location and politics are continuing toraise the price and this does not include such things as gulf wars. > 2. New energy systems using wind and solar power are starting > to compete with oil. So far oil is still cheap in the short term because the technology and dilevery systems are well understood and amortised. Photo voltaics still are net energy losers but that will change sometime in the near future. They are a good way to ship energy with greater transmission effiency than installing lines. >These are facts. Some people say oil will not run out >anytime soon. But they can not deny it will happen. Solar >power is already cost effective in heating homes and water. >Solar electricity still has a way to go, but the industry is >growing very fast. There will always be oil as long as you are willing to pay the price. How much will the last tankfull cost? The real problem is not shortages but cost. Cost of drilling ever deeper in the ocean floor, cost of building roads into ever more sensitive areas, the cost of dealing with ever more greedy governments. Even the strongest laws can be rewritten, what do you think will happen to the Bob Marshall Wilderness when it is the last oilfield and the Navy wants oil or when the elites want it? Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 09:37:24 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25117; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:37:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA13700; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:25:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27854; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:25:53 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27806; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:25:51 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA138417; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:17:48 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:17:34 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <29858.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: human waste Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1065 Status: RO X-Status: >> How about human wastes??? In many US cornbelt states private individuals can use their honeywagons to clean their own septic systems and then spread the septage on their own fields. This is done primarily to save money in pumping the septic tank. Old honeywagons are easy to come by since many of the hog farms in the area use them to pump hog manure pits. Usually the septage is spread on corn ground not on fields growing food intended for direct human consumption. I guess there's some concern about transmission of pathogens. When I worked for the aquaculture industry in Indonesia we often fertilized fish ponds with human waste because we wanted to stimulate algae growth in the ponds and because we needed some way to get rid of the human waste. Worms and hepatitis were common so all fish coming from these ponds had to be cooked. I ate hundreds (thousands?) of fish from these ponds and never contracted any diseases from it - at least nothing I'm aware of! I had myself checked when I returned to the States and the doctors said I was clean :-) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 20:49:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00832; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:49:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA00474; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:48:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20056; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:48:16 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19852; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:47:43 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00399 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:HOMESTEAD@world.std.com>; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 07:09:31 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa09975; 15 Mar 95 7:07 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:06:53 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:06:51 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f656abd.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: Homestead list Subject: HUMAN WASTES Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1547 Status: RO X-Status: All major types of dry composting toilets are approved by the Health Department in Western Australia. These include the two major types of Clivus Multrum, the Dowmus, Rotaloo, and the Biolet. Some homemade DIY ones have been approved as well. Most operate on deposits falling on a slope which spreads them, to allow evaporation and oxidation. Anaerobic bacteria and other beasties die, and after a period of time, and some movement down the slope and over the retaining bar, dry, sweet smelling garden compost is available. The angle of the slope and the height of the "bar" are critical. Diagramatically: __________ ( ) ) ( | | | | _________| |___________ | \ | \ | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | | \| | | | | | |______________| __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 20:16:42 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18657; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:16:42 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA10044; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:09:33 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19658; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:09:31 -0500 Received: from mail.crl.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19616; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:09:29 -0500 Received: from [165.113.1.12] (crl5.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA03980 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:07:45 -0800 X-Sender: ckraft@mail.crl.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:10:46 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: ckraft@crl.com (Clint Kraft) Subject: Introduction Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 5298 Status: RO X-Status: By nature, I'm a very shy person, so I find writing about myself difficult. But, gulp, here goes. I'm unusal in this day and age because I was literally born on a farm. However, my parents moved to Los Angeles county(of all places) when I was six years old. I still have relatives that farm in South Dakota. However, I'm unquestionably a "city slicker" that's still a country boy at heart. Throughout childhood, my brothers and I always said we were "going back to the farm" when we got older. Needless to say, getting into farming has been increasingly difficult for decades and I found myself living a somewhat hedonistic city life instead. In 1983, my first child was born. Suddenly, my attitude changed significantly. I began to be concerned about the kind of future my daughter might face. Unfortunately, the trends didn't seem very positive: increasing human population, decreasing arable land, and 40 years remaining of petroleum reserves. We were living on a 1/3 acre lot and so gardening and raising a few chickens was a natural choice. I felt it was important that my children know how to garden and to know where their food came from. I'm proud of the fact that my two children can recognize more vegetable plants by name and how to grow them than most adults! I also began pumping my father and farming relatives for information about farming practices especially in the pre-chemical days. I'm an avid reader and I began to read everything I could get my hands on related to organic gardening, sustainable farming and nutrition. At one point I was subscribing to 30 magazines and journals on these subjects!(OK I'm a little obsessive compulsive:>) I also have been lucky to be living near John Jeavon's Ecology Action and his storefront, Commonground. I've been influenced by many people in my ways; however, I'd be hard pressed to name an individual that has influenced me more than John. John Jeavons is perhaps the world's leading proponent of small-scale agriculture. About this time I realized I was awash in a sea of information. I decided to try to distill all this info and write down the most pertinent ideas for the benefit of my children. Its been a long journey but I finally finished this project, a 60 page booklet I call "The Holistic Garden." I'm rather unabashedly advertising "The Holistic Garden" to this group because I feel many on this list would enjoy it and the fact that it is definately not a profit making endeavor on my part. They cost me $3 to produce and mail. At $5 ppd per copy, I need to sell 12,742 copies just to break even! I just returned from a three day seminar on Biointensive Mini-Farming given by John Jeavons and the staff at Ecology Action. Much of the material was a review for me but I felt I needed a "refresher course" not to mention a break in my present routine. There was two bits of information that I feel was especially pertinent(here I go again) that I want to share with this group. I have been aware for some time of the ramifications of increasing population and decreasing arable land; however, I had little idea of just when these trends would actually intersect. The latest estimates by experts much more intelligent and knowledgeable than myself, predict that our food supply, as we know it, will cease to exist in 10-12 years. Rather than being depressed by this, I see this as a tremendous opportunity for those of us that know how to grow food efficiently especially in small areas. Needless to say, the time frame to prepare is critically close at hand. Chemical farmers realize, I'm sure, that it takes 5 years to switch from chemical to "organic" farming. The other bit of information I want to share from this seminar pertains to sustainability. For many years, John Jeavons has been studying what it will take to sustainably grow food in a small area *WITHOUT* importing raw materials. The latest conclusion is that we simply cannot grow food sustainably, given the amount of land per person that will be available to feed the world, unless we learn how to safely recycle human wastes. I purchased an excellent book from Ecology Action on the subject called "The Tao of Poo" for $19.84. I will be the first to admit that I've lived a rather comfy life in the city for a number of years. However, I'm now convinced that its time to purchase land acceptable for growing food. I'm looking for property close enough to allow me to "commute" back and forth while I'm building up the soil and tying up loose ends here in the city. A major change in lifestyle at my age is scary for me, but I think it will be even scarier if I don't do it!!! Finally, I'd like to thank Don Bowen for getting this list started. Don seems like one of those rare individuals that gives more than they receive. Thanks. ============================================================================ Clinton R. Kraft Aristera Publications P.O. Box 3764 Redwood City, CA 94064-3764 415-364-2075fax, when I'm not on the 'net:>) "The Holistic Garden" $5 ppd (USA and Canada) Payment can be cash, or check (USA) "We want the facts to fit the preconceptions. When they don't, it is easier to ignore the facts than to change the preconceptions." Jessamyn West ============================================================================ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 14 20:40:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA27799; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:40:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA17603; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:41:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02736; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:41:02 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02710; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:41:00 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyhar10312; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:17:15 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA03502 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:15:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199503141515.HAA03502@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:13:27 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Food Systems X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1129 Status: RO X-Status: > >I'm planting all the trees I can while I'm young. You give them the >frist few years and they pay off for years. A tree you do plant once and >take good care of it for about 3 or 4 years than the tree will give you >back many years of fruit. Not a bad deal. With trees as I get older >and slower the tress get bigger and easier. Seem to be working. Lots >of the trees are 10 or more years old and now I only have to set under >them with my mouth open and wait for the fruit to fall in. : O. One young farmer in the midwest put aside 10 acres for trees as his "retirement". He planted Black Walnut and cherry with lumber production in mind. It takes 50 years to get any production and he will be in his mid 70s then with 10 acres of carefully maintained walnut and cherry trees at $3 - $5 a board foot. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 16:44:19 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24150; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:44:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA00260; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:44:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29729; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:44:07 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29635; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:44:03 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id NAA28925 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:43:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199503152143.NAA28925@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:43:26 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Introduction X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3411 Status: RO X-Status: >Mike Mayer wrote: >The following are just some of the problems that we are largely ignoring: > >1.The statistics on human population growth is mind boggling Look closely at >Mexico as a microcosm of the >world. Try to figure out how this population rate can be fed. Even the air polution in Mexico City is hazardous. There is little more to the sewer system than the ground outside. When this raises as dust, it becomes life threatning. >2.America, the "world's breadbasket." Examine how we produce food in the USA. > >a. Are we going to >tell the world that they can't use energy at the rate we do? The oil >reserves will increasingly deplete. I don't want to hear about the shale >reserves. The energy to extract is prohibitive. What's going to happen to >an agricultural system based on petroleum in the very near future? One point I recently heard is that there is not enough iron reserves in the earth to give the rest of the world the same level of automobile ownership we have. What is going to happen as the price continues to rise and the denate is wether to use oil for fertilizer for the third world or to use it to power our cars. >d.Arable land. Each year less arable land is available to food production >because of desertification, erosion, and development pressures, yet the >world's population continues to rise. 20% of American food is grown in >California's Central Valley. Blessed by climate and ample irrigation water, >"the desert was made to bloom." The point is, irrigation is a splendid short-term >solution for growing food. Its a disaster waiting to happen for those that >try to depend on it long-term. The battle now is wether to send the water to the farmers to grow rice and cotton (among other things) or to send it to the cities for green lawns and swiming pools. Many farmers are selling subsidized water to the cities for huge profits. >f.The Green Revolution. THe people of the green revolution were trying to feed a starving population. Some like Burgland (sp?) tried to talk about population growth but no one listened. They were feeding a world with massive energy inouts with the hope that some time in the future it would not be needed. Current world popluation and food relationship is much like the old cartoon. It showed a large car at a filling station. The attendent was filling the tank and telling the driver to "shut it off, you're gaining on me." >h.Wheat traders. I have heard that in any given moment the world is less than a month from mass starvetion. Due to the year round production of grains and relative cheap transportation this is held off. Look what happens if the delivery system is stopped such as in many parts of Africa. >Urbanites and Homesteaders will find a wealth of information from the >previously posted: > >Bountiful Gardens Seeds >18001 Shafer Ranch Road >Willits, CA 95490 I am basing when I start on a vacation this summer on the hours of this place. I think it is closed on Sun and Mon. I am leaving work early on Friday so I can be there on Saturday. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 17:24:17 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13642; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:24:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA04039; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:07:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14688; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:06:27 -0500 Received: from sol.ashland.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14630; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:06:24 -0500 Received: for mhamel@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.10/931002.1044) id RAA10540; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:08:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:08:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew W. Hamel" Subject: Re: Homesteading and society To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9503151901.AA18619@pms923.pms.ford.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1660 Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Karl Henning wrote: > One thing I want to be able to do on the land I'm on is build > whatever type of shelter I want and not have to worry about > someone elses concept of aesthetics. I wonder, if this idea > (homesteading) gets really popular will it go the way of herbalism, > namely all kinds of gov. intervention into something they know nothing > about, thus once again limiting our freedom, what little we have, > in the name of "protecting us from ourselves". Not to push this too far, but I think this is the role of zoning in my parts. Our County Board of Health is citing the pants off a conservative Amish farmer due to his privy construction and greywater discharge. At the hearing (and I was there) the stoolie from the Board hemmed and hawwed trying to cover up the fact that they did no soil analysis, no drainage survey, etc... And this is *really* in the sticks. The catch is that next door to this fellow is a retirement community surrounding an artificial lake populated by oldsters from Akron, Columbus and Cleveland (in Ohio) that didn't want "country living" (whatever that is these days) with the odor of spring fertilization wafting on the breeze. The county has also made it difficult for those wanting composting toilets, grey water irrigation (even if you agree to not use phosphorus-based soaps) and I'm sure there's a hefty amount of red tape when a homeowner goes solar. And I thought zoning was so the plummer could put his kids through college ;) Matt Hamel mhamel@ashland.edu In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 17:30:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16309; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:30:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA06542; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:28:12 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00929; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:27:55 -0500 Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00878; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:27:51 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA07769 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:27:41 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA11349; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:27:40 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:27:39 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Introduction In-Reply-To: <199503152143.NAA28925@qualcomm.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2523 Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Don Bowen wrote: Be careful with attributions - I didn't write any of the text you quoted. I'll have a go at answering some of your points, though. > >Mike Mayer wrote: > > One point I recently heard is that there is not enough iron reserves > in the earth to give the rest of the world the same level of automobile > ownership we have. What is going to happen as the price continues to rise > and the denate is wether to use oil for fertilizer for the third world or to > use it to power our cars. Well, there is scrap iron. And cars have alot more aluminum, fiberglass and plastic in them now. > Current world popluation and food relationship is much like the old > cartoon. It showed a large car at a filling station. The attendent was > filling the tank and telling the driver to "shut it off, you're gaining on me." > Overall you are painting an alarmist view of the world and the world food supply. While there are great problems in production and distribution of food in third world countries, it is mainly due to the governments there - not necessarily overpopulation. Areas like the Ukraine will probably increase production if the government there gets out of the way. Otherwise why are certain countries permanently "developing" - look at them and their governments - Brazil, for example, its the government that was encouraging people to settle in the rain forest and slash and burn. Even in the US the government contribute to the problems. They encourage farm expansion and single-crop farming by providing loans, crop insurance and price supports. In the absence of these subsidies many farmers would stay out of debt and diversify. While there are problems I don't think there will be a sudden crash. If soil is becoming depleted and water ruunning out (both of which I don't deny) they will happen gradually and cause a gradual reduction in yield over a number of years. As the supply from depleted areas goes down, other areas will be planted. There are large areas that can grow wheat that have been taken out of production, and could be put into production due to the higher return on wheat. Same goes for any other commodity. As the supply runs low the price goes up. When the price is high enough, sources that weren't profitable before become profitable and alternatives are found. ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 19:37:27 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08384; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:37:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA23873; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:38:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13587; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:38:32 -0500 Received: from mail.crl.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13575; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:38:30 -0500 Received: from [165.113.1.12] (crl4.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA01358 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:36:47 -0800 X-Sender: ckraft@mail.crl.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:39:48 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: ckraft@crl.com (Clint Kraft) Subject: Re: farm implements Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 720 Status: RO X-Status: Someone on this list was asking about small scale grain harvesting implements a while back. I'm afraid I lost the original post, however, I'll try to answer generally. "An indispensable tool is a scythe if grain is to be grown to any extent. However, a pruner, or better yet a sickle, is satisfactory for harvesting very small amounts of grain"(THG 45). The best book I've found on this subject is "The Scythe Book" by David Tresemer(ISBN 0-938670-00). It was published by : By Hand & Foot, LTD P.O. Box 611 Brattleboro, VT 05301 Unfortunately, they are no longer in business as far as I can tell. You may be able to find it from second-hand sources. My local hardware store sells both scythes and sickles. clint From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 19:55:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15962; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:55:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA19475; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:09:17 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11931; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:08:19 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11876; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:08:16 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA10086 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:08:06 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Homesteading and society Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:41:20 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 63 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2908 Status: RO X-Status: Homesteading seems to encompass lots of different systems, but the attitudes or relationships with society are probably the most important. To me the social systems are the glue that holds everything together. Some of the current social changes which appear to impact homesteading are: 1. Growth of home schooling. 2. Growth of mass communications (TV) 3. Communications via internet and local BBS's. 4. The domination of large corporations and economic interests in politics and mass communications. There are probably other significant events, but these are the ones that come to mind first. The growth of home schooling seems to be telling us many people have lost faith in their local school system. Mass communications (TV) have had large impacts on family life and the way people think. Advertising has found that repetition and images sometimes work better than facts. Mass communications have also made people feel helpless when confronted with world problems, crime, environmental disasters, bad politics, and excessive violence. Statistics show that political candidates with the most money usually win, and the most money is contributed by large business. The internet has become one of the last great areas of real freedom. Trying to relate all these facts to homesteading is difficult. Probably like walking out on a limb, then sawing it off . Anyway, here are some predictions to consider: 1. Since homesteaders are self-reliant by nature, they accept home schooling and free internet style communications. For some the family unit and internet groups could satisfy the need for community. 2. The constant barrage of bad news from the mass media will cause many people to look around for a better lifestyle. Some will consider homesteading, resulting in increasing numbers of homesteaders. This lifestyle will have different names but the independent homesteader attitude will be a common thread. 3. The use of mass communications and domination by economic interests has created a mass mind to some extent. Since homesteaders are very independent, they will be one of the more interesting groups and will probably be considered somewhat radical. 4. The continued conflict between ecology and economic interests will frustrate many people and they will look for meaningful lifestyles that are sustainable and promote their view. homesteading will be one meaningful alternative to political lobbying and court battles. My intent when writing this was to say something new and possibly controversial. But after reading it again, it looks like pretty mild stuff. Oh well, maybe it will generate some comments. I always enjoy the comments more than my mutilated english. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 20:49:10 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07835; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:49:10 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA01418; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:50:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21521; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:50:01 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21500; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:50:00 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA138928590; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:49:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:49:50 -0500 From: Sandpeep@aol.com Message-Id: <950315204949_50790382@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: food shortages & Trees Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3361 Status: RO X-Status: Read with interest discussion on food distribution vs. actual food shortage - for an excellent, in depth book, STRONGLY suggest "FOOD FIRST, Beyond the Myth of Scarcity" By Frances Moore Lappe and Joseph Collins - although the info is a little old by now, it'll make you so made you'll want to track down Earl Butz (Nixon's Sec of Ag) and hang him - if he's dead, you'll want to dig him up and hang him to make sure. I'm no conspiracy nut, but the way various administration in this country have used food as a carrot/stick against our friends and enemies at the expense of our farmers, consumers and taxpayers is just incredible. It also explains how the world bank was (is?) used as a tool of foreign aid allowing the executive branch or our government to do what it damn well pleased w/o checking with congress. Both authors also wrote "(9?) or (15?) myths about world hunger" (can't remember the number), which was much shorter, but had more up to date info. Based on their two books, there's a "Food First Institute" in Oakland CA which keeps track of big brother in this area - if you TRUELY want to eliminate world hunger - support these people. Even when our government is trying to do the right thing for the right reason, its still amazing how bad we "blow it", and only make the problem worse. (Good example - earthquake in Central American country - we send in food aid, which ends up fueling a black market undermining the government we're trying to help, while at the same time, driving farmers from that same country (in a part of the country not affected by the quake) out of business, as it's very hard to compete with free govt. give aways & make a profit. Other (better know example) during famine in Ethiopia, while we were exporting basic foods thethem, the country was exporting green beans to England in order to service the interest on their World Bank loans. Read the books & get angry!! As for the idea of planting trees for retirement - not bad, but....remember dutch elm disease? or what happened to the American Chesnut tree? How about gypsy moths? Sounds like a good idea, but only planting one or two different species would seem to bring with it all the problems of running a mono-culture farm - maybe no problems, but you pray you can get the crop in before Mother Nature sends that particular pest, weather, fungus, whatever that can wipe out a whole crop - but with trees, you don't worry about a year's crop at a time, would think "condition sweat" would be the norm for the whole 30 yrs. (and what about payback - although delayed & large if successful, what's paying the taxes on the land in the meantime? Isn't there a permaculture idea of interplanting different species of trees, harvesting the fast growing ones just as the more valuable, longer growing trees need the extra room? What about growing poplar (or some other fast growing "cheap" hardwood - better yet Neem trees if warm enough) and harvesting when they are mature, but before the walnut/cherry/big ticket crop gets crowded? Believe it's called "stacking" multiple use of the same land at the same time. There's also smaller payouts prior to the "big payday" and diversification helps if the "podunk basswood beetle" or some other nonindigenous critter shows up (w/no nature predators in your area), and starts chowing down. Sandpeep From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 21:24:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23664; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:24:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA04608; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:25:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10491; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:24:59 -0500 Received: from mv.MV.COM by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10484; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:24:57 -0500 Received: from jsg by mv.mv.com (8.6.10/mv(b)/mem-940616) id VAA20600 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:24:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:24:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199503160224.VAA20600@mv.mv.com> X-Sender: jsg-jo@mv.mv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: john@jsg.MV.COM (John S. Gaythorpe) Subject: Small Tractor for ploughing, etc Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 198 Status: RO X-Status: Any suggestions on small tractors for ploughing, etc., would be most welcome. We have briefly looked at Kubota and John Deere, but they seem somewhat expensive. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 22:26:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20120; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:26:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhgf28033; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:27:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15965; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:26:55 -0500 Received: from lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (lifesci.ucsb.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15910; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:26:48 -0500 Received: from [128.111.226.206] (sora.lscf.ucsb.edu) by lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (4.1/LSCF.UCSB-v1.3R) id AA16716; Wed, 15 Mar 95 19:26:46 PST Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 19:26:44 PST X-Sender: sarr@lifesci.ucsb.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: sarr@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (Daniel Sarr) Subject: Re: Introduction Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1900 Status: RO X-Status: -snip- Howdy homesteaders, I would also like to add my thanks to Andrew Evans for getting the group going. I'm a soon to be freed graduate student a UC Santa Barbara (M.A. ECOLOGY). It's great to hear people addressing some of the grassroots questions of living sustainably. I've tried to incite discussion about our rightful place in the natural system, but haven't been able to get these physicists in drag we call modern biological ecologists to even touch the issue. Cheers to you all! Regarding the question of food shortages (Clint Kraft, Mike Mayer, et al.), I can't pass up the chance to bolster Reverend Malthus' conclusion. Overpopulation is THE problem. No excuses here for many of the horrifically shortsided policies we & other powerfull countries employ (damn us..), but the sheer weight of the humanity we are adding to the planet each year is an unavoidable & gruesome fact. We homesteader types cannot delude ourselves into believing that a timely retreat to the land without actively working to address the rate of human expansion will spare us the issue for more than a few years. Clint's observation that Mexican growth rates are showing up in our censuses should underscore that. Our challenge is to develop skills and insight for a new landbased culture and work to address some of the ongoing processes so our children (optional) can be around to live it. Political scapegoating just isn't where its at.. Alarmist? Hell yes!! But I think you all are up to it. Keep on... Dan *************************************************************** * Daniel Sarr E-Mail sarr@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu * * Department of Biology Office Phone (805) 893-4508 * * University of California Lab Phone (805) 893-4508 * * Santa Barbara, CA 93106 FAX (805) 893-4724 * *************************************************************** From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 22:35:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23543; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:35:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA12870; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:37:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21022; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:37:03 -0500 Received: from ukcc.uky.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20982; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:37:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199503160337.AA20982@world.std.com> Received: from UKCC.UKY.EDU by UKCC.uky.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5499; Wed, 15 Mar 95 22:36:05 EST Received: from ukcc.uky.edu (NJE origin FASALI00@UKCC) by UKCC.UKY.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5698; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:36:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 22:31:02 EST From: Greg Subject: NEED HELP QUICK!!!! To: homestead@world.std.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 367 Status: RO X-Status: I have around $5k and intend to buy a tractor within two days. I have seen lots of tractors and seem to settle on the Ford 3000 series. I am not that knowledge-able about these things...Any help will be needed!!!! The diesel will give me hours but I need to know how the overall experience is? Thnks in advance.... Greg Help me because I will buy in two days. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 10:13:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26093; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:13:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhia06428; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:14:56 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18884; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:10:11 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18830; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:10:08 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA03021 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:09:58 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161509.HAA03021@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:09:30 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: food shortages X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 998 Status: RO X-Status: The latest issue of Organic Gardening came yesterday and it had a very interesting item. China is undergoing rapid economic growth which brings increased consumption. In China's case the increase is mostly in pork. China also has a problem with arable land which is mostly along the rivers. The top soil is washing away at increasing rates. With a current population of over 1.6 Billion (That's B!) they currently inport 6 million tons of wheat. If there is no increase in percapata consumption, with expected population growth, China will be importing 216 million tons of wheat in 35 years. That is more than the current total wheat import/export business throught out the world. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 10:34:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05725; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:34:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhic10291; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:34:24 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06136; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:27:49 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06024; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:27:42 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA04355 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:27:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161527.HAA04355@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:26:54 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: NEED HELP QUICK!!!! X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 967 Status: RO X-Status: >I have around $5k and intend to buy a tractor within two days. I have seen >lots of tractors and seem to settle on the Ford 3000 series. I am not that >knowledge-able about these things...Any help will be needed!!!! > >The diesel will give me hours but I need to know how the overall experience is? > > >Thnks in advance.... > >Greg > >Help me because I will buy in two days. Today send email to antique-tractor-request@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us with the word suscribe as the message. Then a little later send email to antique-tractor@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us with the same question. Several members have Fords and a few have or know a lot about the 3000. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 11:22:18 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29170; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:22:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA01365; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:21:22 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29216; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:21:21 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29171; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:21:19 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA07420 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:21:08 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Solor hot water heating Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:46:17 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199503152021.MAA16092@qualcomm.com> Lines: 28 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1352 Status: RO X-Status: Donald E. Bowen wrote: > After that last long winded bs loaded post from me I thought I > should get back to what I joined this list for. The great money pit of the > IRS has decided to let me have a bit back this year so I decided to spend it > on something that will be useful. I am looking into solar hot water heating. Here in Oregon (rain & clouds) we find that solar can provide most of our hot water. We have to use solar collectors that do not freeze and that adds to the cost. If your area of California does not freeze, then I would think solar would be the way to go. The backup heat system would not be needed, no freeze protection, and lots of sun, Wow! The Solar Living Source Book by Real Goods (1-800-762-7325) is a half catalog and half text. It lists two of the best systems and they are a little expensive. The Sun Family is $1050 and the Copper cricket is $2180. This does not include the installation and piping, etc. In your area the local installers may be able to beat these prices. Oregon gives tax credits for solar hot water, doesn't California have something also? If you want to know more about the Copper Cricket then let me know. We have one that is 3-4 years old and hopefully it will last our lifetime. I think it paid for itself this year, so our hot water is now free. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 22:32:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28082; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:32:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA09886; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:32:03 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13019; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:31:49 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13006; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:31:47 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhis09972; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:37:43 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA05266 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:36:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:36:27 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Homesteading and society To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3356 Status: RO X-Status: Jeff et al - I'll see that and raise you one. My thinking on the subject of local community has changed since I started getting into the spirit of homesteading - I realized that one of the saddest things about the corner of suburbia in which I currently live is that none of my neighbors feel compelled to introduce themselves to each other, let alone cooperate on anything. The closest anyone on my street has come to communicating since we moved here was a lawsuit over the placement of a fence. My parents, on the other hand, live in a rural community where their nearest neighbors are 1/4 mile away, yet there is a strong sense of community and a group of folks willing and able to help each other out at a moment's notice. There was an interesting discussion about this on misc.rural a while back, where someone noted thatwhen they lived in the suburbs, their neighbors failed notice (or report?) break-ins or suspicious activity around each other's homes. When they moved to the country, before they even moved, their neighbors 1/4 mile away checked up on their house when they got suspicious about a contractor driving up with a different color truck one day! I think you *have* to nurture your ties with the local community in some way when homesteading - at the very least, you can build a local "labor economy" akin to the Amish practices of barn- and house-raising and taking in crops. It is my humble opinion that the breakdown of community (and family) interdependence is the root cause of many of the social ills in American society. Once people stop depending on each other, they begin to stop caring about each other. At best they ignore each other, and at worst they sue and shoot each other. When we left the land-based life and moved to the cities and suburbs, we left communities behind to a large extent (with a few notable exceptions, but not nearly enough). I feel that just moving back to the land is not enough - we need to rebuild communities as well - in rural as well as non-rural settings (back to the idea of "homesteading" in the urban landscape). On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Jeff Owens wrote: > My natural tendency is to withdraw from society and try to > create a sane environment. But, this isolationism will > produce lots of suspicions and make people nervous. I > think the answer is some level of involvement in the local > community. My wife does a little volunteer work and try to > maintain contact so people will know that we are tolerant > of others viewpoints. This isn't a complete answer to the > homesteader vrs the government issue, but having an > understanding local government helps a little. If we all > do it then we become part of big government and the our > influence is felt. If we don't get involved then we become > outsiders who will be the local joke or blight. > > Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 20:38:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20134; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA22911; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14791; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:17 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14777; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:16 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA113324287; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:07 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950316203807_51888265@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Small Tractor parts Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 172 Status: RO X-Status: Can't say for Kioti, but Zetor parts are here. There's a ware house on Harrisburg, PA, and delivery is quick. Beside, Zetors are built like American tractors USED to be... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 20:39:32 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20500; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:39:32 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA22949; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:58 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14844; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:22 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14825; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:20 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA120784291; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:38:11 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950316203810_51888308@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Homesteading and The Guvmint Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1321 Status: RO X-Status: D I get the feeling that anytime anyone tries to get out of "the system" certain parts of the Guvmint get all upset. There seems to be a move towards more control of the population, as shown by such things as the Clipper chip, and the current S314, which proposes to hold electroninc info providers such as OAL and CSI responsible for the "decency" of the messages etc. on their systems. Doesn't seem to be one party or the other (I suspect party affiliation isn't much more than show on Capitol Hill, they're ALL Guvmint). Maybe it's 3rd level bureaucrats that don't change from one administration to the next. One of the reasons I'm out here in the back 40 is that as I get my own food production and energy systems going, I'm less reliant on outside factors for my day-to-day needs. And in being less reliant I'm less easily swayed. Yup, this is rather paranoid thinking, and I'm not about to appologize for it. All I can say is that if Society doesn't like what I'm doing homesteading, they don't have to watch. Seems like we have far too many people who want to pass laws because they don't like something. Like Dave Duffy of Backwoods Home Magazine told a reader who complained about articles on guns and certain ads: If you don't like the article, don't read it. If you don;t like the ad or product, don't buy it. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 13:12:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25271; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:12:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA16848; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:09:34 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23295; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:59:37 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22697; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:57:51 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25358 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:57:37 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Solar Cookers Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:41:07 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 34 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1159 Status: RO X-Status: Here is a message recently posted about solar cooking which might interest homesteaders. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tom Sponheim Subject: Solar Cooking Archive Readers of the listserve might be interested in the Solar Cooking Archive which we have recently set up on WWW. If you have web access you can check it out directly at http://www.xmission.com/~seer/sbcn/index.htm Otherwise, email me and I'll send you some files containing background information on the growing movement to build fully functioning solar ovens from simple materials such as cardboard boxes, baskets, etc. We also have some in-depth articles on solar water pasteurization. The archive contains complete construction plans for many types of ovens as well as two recent issues of Solar Box Journal and a photo gallery. We look forward to hearing from any interested parties, Tom Sponheim Solar Cookers International Solar Box Cookers Northwest Seattle, Washington USA Tom Sponheim Solar Box Cookers Northwest 7036 18th Ave. NE Seattle, WA 98115 USA The Solar Cooking Archive --> http://www.xmission.com/~seer/sbcn/index.htm From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 13:12:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25271; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:12:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA16848; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:09:34 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23295; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:59:37 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22697; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:57:51 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25358 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:57:37 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Solar Cookers Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:41:07 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 34 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1159 Status: RO X-Status: D Here is a message recently posted about solar cooking which might interest homesteaders. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tom Sponheim Subject: Solar Cooking Archive Readers of the listserve might be interested in the Solar Cooking Archive which we have recently set up on WWW. If you have web access you can check it out directly at http://www.xmission.com/~seer/sbcn/index.htm Otherwise, email me and I'll send you some files containing background information on the growing movement to build fully functioning solar ovens from simple materials such as cardboard boxes, baskets, etc. We also have some in-depth articles on solar water pasteurization. The archive contains complete construction plans for many types of ovens as well as two recent issues of Solar Box Journal and a photo gallery. We look forward to hearing from any interested parties, Tom Sponheim Solar Cookers International Solar Box Cookers Northwest Seattle, Washington USA Tom Sponheim Solar Box Cookers Northwest 7036 18th Ave. NE Seattle, WA 98115 USA The Solar Cooking Archive --> http://www.xmission.com/~seer/sbcn/index.htm From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 13:12:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25281; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:12:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA16789; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:07:22 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23329; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:59:38 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22717; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:57:53 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25348 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:57:36 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Homesteading and society Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:09:30 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9503151901.AA18619@pms923.pms.ford.com> Lines: 29 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1440 Status: RO X-Status: Karl henning wrote: > One thing I want to be able to do on the land I'm on is build > whatever type of shelter I want and not have to worry about > someone elses concept of aesthetics. I wonder, if this idea > (homesteading) gets really popular will it go the way of herbalism, > namely all kinds of gov. intervention into something they know nothing > about, thus once again limiting our freedom, what little we have, > in the name of "protecting us from ourselves". > > this might be an interesting thread. Potential gov. intervention > into those uppidy folks who don't want to play the Society game. Jeff Owens responds: My natural tendency is to withdraw from society and try to create a sane environment. But, this isolationism will produce lots of suspicions and make people nervous. I think the answer is some level of involvement in the local community. My wife does a little volunteer work and try to maintain contact so people will know that we are tolerant of others viewpoints. This isn't a complete answer to the homesteader vrs the government issue, but having an understanding local government helps a little. If we all do it then we become part of big government and the our influence is felt. If we don't get involved then we become outsiders who will be the local joke or blight. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 13:15:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26875; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:15:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAB01233; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:20:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27953; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:20:44 -0500 Received: from Fox.NSTN.Ca (fox.nstn.ns.ca) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27822; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:20:41 -0500 Received: from bridgewater-ts-14.nstn.ca (bridgewater-ts-14.nstn.ca [137.186.27.114]) by Fox.NSTN.Ca (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA20717 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:20:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:20:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199503161620.MAA20717@Fox.NSTN.Ca> X-Sender: rosmith@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: rosmith@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Richard O. Smith) Subject: Re: NEED HELP QUICK!!!! Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 843 Status: RO X-Status: >I have around $5k and intend to buy a tractor within two days. snip >Help me because I will buy in two days. > >Go Diesel - do not even consider gas unless you have really cold weather and can't plug it in. Zetor is OK but $$$. I use a Massey Ferguson 240 (UK made). MF are very popular in this area because they have a "Ground Speed PTO" which means you can have a Power Trailer made from a truck frame and rear end and couple it to your PTO effectively allowing your trailer as well as your tractor to haul. Very effective in the woods. ************************************************************** Richard Smith rosmith@fox.nstn.ca 156 Sarty Rd RR1 New Germany, NS 1-902-644-3288 CA B0R 1A0 ************************************************************** From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 13:19:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28678; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:19:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA13242; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:04:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20130; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:04:05 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20098; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:04:02 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA16969 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 06:03:52 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Catalogs Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 06:20:30 -0500 Message-Id: <-x1QlS9cpwnL069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: Lines: 42 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1135 Status: RO X-Status: Here is a list of my favorite catalogs. These are all west coast US catalogs, and each one is unique in some way. Peaceful Valley Farm Supply PO box 2209 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Peacefull Valley carries organic farming and gardening tools. Backwoods Solar Electric Systems 8530 Rapid Lighting Creek Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 Backwoods is a friendly solar supply run by a Quaker family from their house. J. L. Hudson PO Box 1058 Redwood City, California 94064 Collection of seeds from around the world. Their interest seems to be biodiversity and they have just about every seed you can imagine. Catalog is $1.00 Oregon Exotics 1065 Messinger Rd Grants Pass, OR 97527 Oregon Exotics carry mainly food plants from around the world. The latest catalog has several new plants from South America. The previous catalog contained new plants from China. Catalogs cost money and resources to produce, so I'm sure these folks would prefer only sending catalogs to people who are seriously interested. Most are small companies, run by a family, with a special interest and knowledge of what they sell. Jeff (Vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 10:24:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01234; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:24:38 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhib28620; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:20:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22664; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:13:56 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22614; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:13:53 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA03293 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:13:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161513.HAA03293@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:13:15 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Small Tractor for ploughing, etc X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 980 Status: RO X-Status: >Any suggestions on small tractors for ploughing, etc., would be most welcome. > >We have briefly looked at Kubota and John Deere, but they seem somewhat >expensive. Any thoughts? You should join the folks over at the antique tractor forum. Just send email to antique-tractor-request@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us. There is a lot of experience there with older tractors. THe older tractors are more economical in the long and short term and they are easier to repair. It is not to difficult to do all the work your self. I am looking for an affordable Ferguson 30 and I am trying to buy a Farmall Cub. I currently have 2 farmall A's in pieces that I need to go pick up. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 10:33:06 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05145; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:33:06 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhib08766; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:27:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22664; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:13:56 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22614; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:13:53 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA03293 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:13:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161513.HAA03293@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:13:15 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Small Tractor for ploughing, etc X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 980 Status: RO X-Status: >Any suggestions on small tractors for ploughing, etc., would be most welcome. > >We have briefly looked at Kubota and John Deere, but they seem somewhat >expensive. Any thoughts? You should join the folks over at the antique tractor forum. Just send email to antique-tractor-request@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us. There is a lot of experience there with older tractors. THe older tractors are more economical in the long and short term and they are easier to repair. It is not to difficult to do all the work your self. I am looking for an affordable Ferguson 30 and I am trying to buy a Farmall Cub. I currently have 2 farmall A's in pieces that I need to go pick up. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 10:34:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05531; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:34:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhic10730; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:36:24 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03358; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:24:34 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03337; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:24:32 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA04071 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:24:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161524.HAA04071@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:23:54 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Small Tractor for ploughi... X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2197 Status: RO X-Status: >There's brand out of Korea called Coyote or Kioti (pronounced that way at >least, and uses a silhouette of a yodel dog for the logo). Tractor dealer >next door says the quality is high, and price is better than Kobuto or Deere. >Might also look at a small Zetor. Czech tractor, real nice. > Or look for a small used tractor, like a Farmall 140. I just got one from >a neighbor, complete with tobacco cultivators. I'll be planting on 40" rows, b >ut I sure won't be hoeing acres of garden.... The problem I see with the off brand tractors is parts. Where is the dealer going to be in a few years when you need a fuel injection pump? Small older US tractors have good parts availability. THere are few if any parts that you cannot get. The 140 is an excelent tractor. It is near the end of the line of a tractor introduced in 1939 as the Farmall A. The A siblings were the B and C. THe A grew into the Super A, 140 and 240. Production lasted until 1979. A younger brother is the cub which was interduced sometime around 1950 and was in production longer than the A. Other small tractors you might consider are the Allis Chalmbers B and the G. John Deere made the LA and the M. Massey Harris sold the Pacer and POny before merging with Ferguson. The Ford N series are good tractors though a bit over priced at times. The same with the Ferguson 20s and 30s. There are many others. An advantage of the antique tractor besides ease of repair, is that you can join antique tractor clubs and visit with people who have used them when new. You can go to tractor shows and meet people that have lived the life we discuss back when that was normal rural life. Another advantage is that you can join with as nice a group of people as this one in the tractor forum. Send email to antique-tractor-request@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us with the word subscribe in the body. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 11:00:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18588; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:00:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhid04603; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:45:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03358; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:24:34 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03337; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:24:32 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA04071 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:24:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161524.HAA04071@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:23:54 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Small Tractor for ploughi... X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2197 Status: RO X-Status: >There's brand out of Korea called Coyote or Kioti (pronounced that way at >least, and uses a silhouette of a yodel dog for the logo). Tractor dealer >next door says the quality is high, and price is better than Kobuto or Deere. >Might also look at a small Zetor. Czech tractor, real nice. > Or look for a small used tractor, like a Farmall 140. I just got one from >a neighbor, complete with tobacco cultivators. I'll be planting on 40" rows, b >ut I sure won't be hoeing acres of garden.... The problem I see with the off brand tractors is parts. Where is the dealer going to be in a few years when you need a fuel injection pump? Small older US tractors have good parts availability. THere are few if any parts that you cannot get. The 140 is an excelent tractor. It is near the end of the line of a tractor introduced in 1939 as the Farmall A. The A siblings were the B and C. THe A grew into the Super A, 140 and 240. Production lasted until 1979. A younger brother is the cub which was interduced sometime around 1950 and was in production longer than the A. Other small tractors you might consider are the Allis Chalmbers B and the G. John Deere made the LA and the M. Massey Harris sold the Pacer and POny before merging with Ferguson. The Ford N series are good tractors though a bit over priced at times. The same with the Ferguson 20s and 30s. There are many others. An advantage of the antique tractor besides ease of repair, is that you can join antique tractor clubs and visit with people who have used them when new. You can go to tractor shows and meet people that have lived the life we discuss back when that was normal rural life. Another advantage is that you can join with as nice a group of people as this one in the tractor forum. Send email to antique-tractor-request@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us with the word subscribe in the body. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 11:25:33 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00862; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:25:33 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA02253; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:25:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04025; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:25:13 -0500 Received: from teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03953; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:25:10 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhif14130; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:22:35 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA07416 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:21:07 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Homesteading and society Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199503152010.MAA13674@qualcomm.com> Lines: 70 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3223 Status: RO X-Status: Donald E. Bowen wrote: > THe real problem is that as mass media shows how bad the world is, > it also shows an alternative to the bad. Just buy the new widget and your > [sex,home,work] life will improve. It is not to great a leap from a car > that will make the drive home exciting to the politician that will make your > life pleasent and secure. Jeff Owens responds: That is an interesting way of viewing the media and advertising. Yes, it makes sense. Accepting the fact that advertising is defining happiness for a large percent of the population is a little disturbing though. This leads to the conclusion that kids need to be protected or educated about the propaganda aspects of advertising, and that most of us have to watch out for the repetition effect of advertising (similar to brain washing). Is the solution to just turn the TV off? Donald E. Bowen wrote: > 5. Growth of consumption as a controlling way of life. > The images we are bombarded with are consumption. You can't just > buy a decent car, it must have automatic, air, CD, leather, etc. If you > cannot afford it, lease it. You must have a "luxery" edition of everything. > THe stuff that is available is cheaply built but no one cares because the > idea is to dump it soon anyway.I quit walking trash day because of the waste. Jeff Owens responds: Yes, consumption seems to be a driving force in our society. I have long though about what is the most positive thing an individual can do to improve things. Things like political action, education, dropping out, and scientific solutions. In the end I decided that the strongest vote today is by how one consumes or chooses not to consume. This does not mean that we should stop voting, but just that our vote as a consumer counts more. It would be interesting trying to prove that voting with consumption has more impact than the ballot box, and that might be an interesting subject . Anyway, one happy thought is that the homesteader lifestyle is part of the solution. Donald E. Bowen wrote: > THe self sufficient life style is not one of comfort. When you > produce your own heat, you realize that a sweater is better than another > notch on the thermostat. Changing the oil on the car can be messy but you > are doing your bit to make sure what you have will last as long as possible. Jeff Owens responds: Right, a homesteader has to work, sweat, and has lots of problems. But the really important question is: Are homesteaders generally more content and satisfied with their life? That would be difficult to answer. I have tried a few experiments with my own life and concluded that the answer is yes. One simple experiment was to turn off the TV and work at self sufficiency instead. After a year of this my feeling of accomplishment when up and I started feeling in control. That was over 20+ years ago, and we have not watched TV since. This isn't a perfect example, but I think the homestead attitude is demonstrated. Well, I have lots of ideas going around in my head, but this is getting long so I'll quit. Thanks for the insights Don, it provides some things to think about. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 11:54:49 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14779; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:54:49 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA06907; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:51:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27293; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:51:39 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27110; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 11:51:28 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id IAA15357 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:51:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199503161651.IAA15357@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:50:47 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Homesteading and society X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3887 Status: RO X-Status: >Jeff Owens > > That is an interesting way of viewing the media and > advertising. Yes, it makes sense. Accepting the fact that > advertising is defining happiness for a large percent of the > population is a little disturbing though. This leads to the > conclusion that kids need to be protected or educated about > the propaganda aspects of advertising, and that most of us > have to watch out for the repetition effect of advertising > (similar to brain washing). Is the solution to just turn > the TV off? I was ready to reply before reading further but I see you have the same solution I have. When we moved last year, we moved top a fring area. The cable is just up the street but they wanted $75. Why should I pay &5$ then $30+ a month for something as worthless as TV. We did not connect and new we are better off for no TV connection. I get more done and our daughter is doing much better in school. >Jeff Owens > > Yes, consumption seems to be a driving force in our society. > I have long though about what is the most positive thing an > individual can do to improve things. Things like political > action, education, dropping out, and scientific solutions. > In the end I decided that the strongest vote today is by how > one consumes or chooses not to consume. This does not mean > that we should stop voting, but just that our vote as a > consumer counts more. > > It would be interesting trying to prove that voting with > consumption has more impact than the ballot box, and that > might be an interesting subject . > > Anyway, one happy thought is that the homesteader lifestyle > is part of the solution. You become a small voice in the wilderness. The self sufficent life style cannot compete with the flash and glamour. How can working with your hands compete with a fancy resturaunt? The people who controll the media need ad revenues to run the media. Ad revenues come from comapnies that must maintain sales to pay for the ads. Sales come from consumers needing to buy yet another worthelss goodie. >Jeff Owens > > Right, a homesteader has to work, sweat, and has lots of > problems. But the really important question is: Are > homesteaders generally more content and satisfied with > their life? That would be difficult to answer. I have > tried a few experiments with my own life and concluded that > the answer is yes. One simple experiment was to turn off the > TV and work at self sufficiency instead. After a year of > this my feeling of accomplishment when up and I started > feeling in control. That was over 20+ years ago, and we > have not watched TV since. This isn't a perfect example, > but I think the homestead attitude is demonstrated. > > Well, I have lots of ideas going around in my head, but this > is getting long so I'll quit. Thanks for the insights Don, > it provides some things to think about. > >Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) There should be a good feeling from being able to tackle whatever comes your way. I get a great satisfaction from knowing that I will provide for myself and my family no matter what happens. I have been thinking about a lot of this and so far the answeres are limited. What drives us to just want. What drives us to value the lifestyle of play and consumption over work and thrift? What stops the self suficent lifestyle from being nothing more than something to think about when the boss is on your butt and traffic is stopped. Why are people who work with thier hands valued less than those that use thier brains only? why? Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 23:04:07 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08409; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:04:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA16494; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:03:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08757; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:03:13 -0500 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08729; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:03:10 -0500 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id UAA27662 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:02:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 20:02:58 -0800 Message-Id: <199503170402.UAA27662@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Small Tractor parts Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1643 Status: RO X-Status: >Can't say for Kioti, but Zetor parts are here. There's a ware house on >Harrisburg, PA, and delivery is quick. Beside, Zetors are built like American >tractors USED to be... The trouble is what will be the parts state is a few years. There are enough parts to handle warranty problems but what about when the tractor is 20 years old? I have nothing against the tractors mentioned, it's just that I think purchases should be made with the idea that you do it as little as possible. Something like a tractor or a car should be purchased for the long term. One reason I bought the pickup I did is that I feel that I will get 200K+ miles out of it. Parts is a big part of the longivity. I have had better luck buying parts for my 1966 Corvair than my wife's 1987 Taurus. The Ford has 120K miles and is really a rolling piece of junk. My 1964 Ford van has 250K+ miles and I am still using it. As for the tractors in question. The Zetor was tested in Nebaraska during 1964. It is made in Czechoslovakia and has been in the country since at least 1964. The Kioti is not listed and the test listing I have goes up to 1984. One thing to keep in mind is the Belarus. They were tested in 1973, 1975 and 1973. As far as I know the even parts are no longer being imported from the USSR. And we have all heard of the URSUS. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 23:48:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA21622; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:48:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA24651; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:48:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15103; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:48:37 -0500 Received: from teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15082; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:48:35 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhje06931; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 17:36:43 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA27372 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:36:37 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Horse Farming Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 15:12:10 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 18 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 798 Status: RO X-Status: First let me state that I know very little about farming. We do have a few acres in gardens and trees, but I consider our efforts homesteading. What interests me about farming is the economics and how society views it. Most farm magazines do not talk about philosophy, old tractors, and reconditioning old equipment. But there is one pleasant exception. Small Farmers Journal discusses these issues and specializes in horse farming. Too me it is always a surprise to find that horse farming is still alive. In fact it appears to be profitable. So if you are looking for a different perspective on farming, here is an information source. If you are bothered by unedited letters from people who have a marginal grasp of correct english, then skip this magazine. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 16 23:53:24 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23225; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:53:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA25691; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:53:29 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18355; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:53:32 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18344; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 23:53:31 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyhjc00301; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 17:13:04 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id OAA19317 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:12:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199503162212.OAA19317@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:12:28 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Favorite authors X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 940 Status: RO X-Status: Many of the things we have been munching over the last few days are covered by several books. Two of my favorite are Gene Logdson and Wendell Berry. Both cover the issues of sustainability, community, rural life, etc. I have LOgdsone "contrary Farmer" and it is one of the few books I plan to read again. I checked Berrey's latest book from the library and now I want to buy my own copy. The title is something along the lines os "sex, community, ????" What books do any of you recomend along the same lines? I love to read and I noticed the pile beside the bed is now down to less than 2 feet so it needs reloaded. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 15 09:12:07 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23290; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:12:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA23655; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:12:01 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02535; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:08:41 -0500 Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02514; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:08:39 -0500 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00773; Wed, 15 Mar 95 09:10:45 EST Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06974; Wed, 15 Mar 95 09:09:04 EST Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01696; Wed, 15 Mar 95 09:09:01 EST Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 09:09:01 EST From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9503151409.AA01696@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Catalog Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 706 Status: RO X-Status: I get a catalogue that's a little out of the ordinary, so thought I'd post the address if anyone's interested. It's a little on the high- tech side of gardening, which is kind of the antithesis of this mailing list, but it has some different items, such as: hydroponic equipment bat guano wine-making stuff home-brewing supplies a lot of different lighting systems for indoor growing worms & worm castings plus the usual array of row covers, "organic" pesticides, beneficial insects, etc. I don't know how good the prices are, because I never buy any of this stuff, but if anyone's interested, it's: Worm's Way 3151 South Highway 446 Blommington, IN 47401 Barb Bruns I don't speak for LEXIS-NEXIS. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 21:51:47 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26521; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:51:47 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA12214; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:50:57 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06060; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:49:05 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06042; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:49:03 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA240244933; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:48:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:48:53 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950317214851_53013115@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: parts Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 477 Status: RO X-Status: You hit one thing square on the head: the newer the vehicle, the lesser the quality. Seems like new cars last about 3 years and start to fall apart. Prices scare the bejesus out of me, too. The least expensive new car I've seen advertised is about 1/2 of a year's pay for me. Far too much money. I use the poor man's strategy of buying a car for $500-1000 and running it inot the ground over about 5 years. It sure beats shelling out a couple hundred bucks a month for a car. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 21:51:10 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26329; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:51:10 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA12020; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:49:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06032; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:49:01 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06013; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:49:00 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA230334930; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:48:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:48:50 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950317214848_53013079@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Favorite authors Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 584 Status: RO X-Status: Gary Paul Habhan wrote "Enduring Seeds" about the need to preserve native crops and genetic diversity. CArolyn Jabs wrote "The Heirloom Gardener" about why heirlooms are important. Aldo Leopold wrote "A Sand County Alamanac" a collection of essays about the environment and ecologocial balance, long before this sort of thing became trendy. Brad and Vena Angier wrote "We Like It Wild" about their adventures homesteading in British Columbia in the 50's. Peter Farb wrote "Man's Rise To Civilization" which looks at the various social orders used by various New World peoples. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 08:42:37 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02994; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:42:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA14181; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:43:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07722; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:42:43 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07664; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:42:40 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56714; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:42:08 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:41:58 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <27721.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Homesteading and The Guvmint Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 625 Status: RO X-Status: .. Seems like we have far too many people who want to pass > laws because they don't like something. Like Dave Duffy of Backwoods Home > Magazine told a reader who complained about articles on guns and certain ads: > If you don't like the article, don't read it. If you don;t like the ad or > product, don't buy it. Well put - I agree 100%! We seem to have a problem in the US with people passing laws to control the behavior of other people even when the offending behavior has no direct impact on the law-writer. The Libertarian Party has some interesting theories on lessening government control over private behavior. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 09:04:10 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA09058; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:04:10 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA16523; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:59:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01886; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:58:34 -0500 Received: from sol.ashland.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01835; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:58:32 -0500 Received: for mhamel@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.10/931002.1044) id JAA01910; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:00:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:00:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew W. Hamel" Subject: Libertarians and the Guvmint To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <27721.rrosati@ilstu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 850 Status: RO X-Status: But Libertarians automatically assume that ALL people will act in a socially responsible manner. It should be obvious that there are many who could care less about policing their own actions. What's ironic about all this is that even those who are in favor of less government (Conservatives) still want to influence our behavior through the passage of legislation. I think it was Edward Abbey (everyone's favorite anarchist) who noted the guvmint interests are ALWAYS against those of the individual. I don't know if I want to push it that far, but clearly good governing is in the eyes of the beholder, a sort of slippery, subjective beast that affects us all willy nilly, especially those of us who would rather keep it at arm's length. My $.02, Matt Hamel mhamel@ashland.edu In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 09:31:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17461; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:31:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA21675; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:31:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01551; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:30:44 -0500 Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01444; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:30:41 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA03076 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:30:30 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA12266; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:30:29 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:30:28 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Homesteading and The Guvmint In-Reply-To: <950316203810_51888308@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1757 Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 16 Mar 1995 LCSkinner@aol.com wrote: > I get the feeling that anytime anyone tries to get out of "the system" > certain parts of the Guvmint get all upset. There seems to be a move towards > more control of the population, as shown by such things as the Clipper chip, > and the current S314, which proposes to hold electroninc info providers such > as OAL and CSI responsible for the "decency" of the messages etc. on their > systems. Doesn't seem to be one party or the other (I suspect party > affiliation isn't much more than show on Capitol Hill, they're ALL Guvmint). > Maybe it's 3rd level bureaucrats that don't change from one administration to > the next. One of the factors to consider when looking to buy land is the local government climate. Do they leave people alone? Or do they try to enforce the letter of every building code? Where I live now (Calumet County, WI) There are few zoning laws and I've been left alone. When I re-sided my house I kept expecting someone to show up and tell me to get a building permit, but no one ever did. The only problem is property taxes. They are fairly low, but the county has some areas that are getting densely populated, so they are expanding the courthouse, paid for through a property tax increase. Along with climate, soil, etc. I would definitely look at property tax rates, building codes, zoning and the probability of increasing property tax rates. It's too bad that in too many places the government doesn't just leave people alone. ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI http://www.plexus.com/~mikem/ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 09:40:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20139; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:40:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA23259; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:39:57 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13657; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:39:19 -0500 Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13572; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:39:16 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA03239 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:39:05 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA12275; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:39:04 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:39:03 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Horse Farming In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1069 Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Jeff Owens wrote: [Small Farmer'e Journal] > If you are bothered by unedited letters from people who > have a marginal grasp of correct english, then skip this magazine. I'm a subscriber, and I've also purchased both of Lynn Miller's (the editor) books on work horses. It's an interesting magazine - lots of letters, as you mentioned. One of these days I plan to get a team of horses. I need to finish home repairs and barn repairs first. That reminds me, the last issue mentioned the Small Farm Get Together and Horse Progress Days in Goshen, Indiana July 7-9. I plan on being there. It sounds like there will be information and demonstrations of many small farm (homestead) related stuff. Sheep raising, etc. etc. I'll post the address and phone number for more information on Monday (it's at home). ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI http://www.plexus.com/~mikem/ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 09:43:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20830; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:43:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA23760; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:43:08 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18424; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:42:23 -0500 Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18238; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:42:15 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA03277 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:42:05 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA12281; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:42:04 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:42:04 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Food Systems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 549 Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Clint Kraft wrote: > > POT-That's potato, not hemp(although a potato>hemp rotation may, in fact, > be a good one). Now if Mike Mayer's government would only get off my back, > I might be able to find out:>) > Hey - watch it. It's not my government. :-) I certainly didn't vote for it. ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI http://www.plexus.com/~mikem/ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 09:57:18 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25360; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:57:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA25047; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:51:28 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05078; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:50:40 -0500 Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05040; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:50:37 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA03425 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:50:27 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA12289; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:50:26 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:50:25 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Homesteading and The Guvmint In-Reply-To: <27721.rrosati@ilstu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 735 Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 17 Mar 1995 rrosati@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu wrote: > > Well put - I agree 100%! We seem to have a problem in the US with people > passing laws to control the behavior of other people even when the offending > behavior has no direct impact on the law-writer. The Libertarian Party has > some interesting theories on lessening government control over private > behavior. > Well, its worse than that - they are passing laws when the offending behavior has no direct impact on *anyone*! ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI http://www.plexus.com/~mikem/ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 10:37:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08020; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:37:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA02977; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:35:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29585; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:34:46 -0500 Received: from coyote.rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29558; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:34:44 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.10/RAIN-1.0) with id HAA03817 for on Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:30:13 -0800 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:30:13 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Homesteading and The Guvmint In-Reply-To: <27721.rrosati@ilstu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2192 Status: RO X-Status: The way is see it is there are people that have nothing to do all day but make up stuff and frame it and call it law. The make up laws that can steal widows houses. they do it in Wash. for the state for the county and even for the city some even do it for a block or a appartment. They get paid to sit in a room and make up stuff so thats what they do. Ok here is a idea let us vote on it and call it law and go out and enforce it. There is so many people doing this with so many titles thats its no wonder there are so many regulations. Laws Laws Laws. Now they want to regester benificial insects and other biologiclal controls and regester organic farmers . Like farming organic and biological controls are dangerious or something. ?Soon if u farm organic or use a pests' natural enemies you will get a added tax just for not using chemicals and farming naturally. Daa They are sitting in their little rooms today makeing up stuff. framing it and calling it LAW. For me who tries to follow both mans laws and Gods its getting harder and harder. I wish they would slow down. I like grid lock. They talk about less regulations but I see more. They speak with fork tounges. The chief was right. They say go natural then they tax you for doing it. ---< fork tounges sorry about spelling. At least Gods laws make cents to me. rrosati@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu wrote: > .. Seems like we have far too many people who want to pass > > laws because they don't like something. Like Dave Duffy of Backwoods Home > > Magazine told a reader who complained about articles on guns and certain ads: > > If you don't like the article, don't read it. If you don;t like the ad or > > product, don't buy it. > > Well put - I agree 100%! We seem to have a problem in the US with people > passing laws to control the behavior of other people even when the offending > behavior has no direct impact on the law-writer. The Libertarian Party has > some interesting theories on lessening government control over private > behavior. > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html . From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 10:44:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10923; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:44:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA03840; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:41:36 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04505; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:41:11 -0500 Received: from hannibal (hannibal.wncc.cc.ne.us) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04468; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:41:07 -0500 Received: by hannibal (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA29420; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:37:06 +0700 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:37:06 -0700 (MST) From: John Harris Subject: Re: Food Systems To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 649 Status: RO X-Status: ### ## ## ##### ### |John Harris - Nebraska Western Cashmere # # # # # # # |Mitchell Ne 69357 # ## # # #### # ### |90417 County Road #17 # # # # # # # # |Voice:(308)635-1579 Fax:(308)635-6100 ### ## # # # ### |jharris@hannibal.wncc.cc.ne.us On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Mike Mayer wrote: > > > Hey - watch it. It's not my government. :-) I certainly didn't vote for it. > It is your government precisely because you did'nt vote for it. Its a government of the people by the people and for the people. That is the intended purpose and its original conception. Cashmerely yours. John Harris From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 11:00:45 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16856; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 11:00:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05806; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:54:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13561; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:54:18 -0500 Received: from oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13526; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:54:16 -0500 Received: (from cfrieden@localhost) by oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id KAA26075 for homestead@world.std.com; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:54:06 -0500 From: Christopher Friedenberg Message-Id: <199503171554.KAA26075@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Solar Hot Water To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:54:05 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Owens" at Mar 16, 95 08:46:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 790 Status: RO X-Status: > Donald E. Bowen wrote: > After that last long winded bs loaded post from me I thought I > should get back to what I joined this list for. The great money pit of the > IRS has decided to let me have a bit back this year so I decided to spend it > on something that will be useful. I am looking into solar hot water heating. Don, I don't know how much money you have to spend, but-- the basic principles behind a "batch" type solar heater seem very simple, virtually no moving parts, and since you live in So. Cal. freezing is not much of an issue. You should be able to build your own for less than $500. I recall seeing a design from Steve Baer's Zomeworks a few months ago that looked pretty nifty. Plus you can repair it yourself, and tinker as you like. As ever, Christopher From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 12:16:26 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16414; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:16:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05167; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:19:24 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09292; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:19:02 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09253; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:18:59 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA10957 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:18:48 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Solor hot water heating Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:36:55 -0500 Message-Id: <7wPQlS9cpkiC069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: Lines: 34 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1559 Status: RO X-Status: Andrew Evans wrote: > I've had my eye on a Copper Cricket for a while, but I wasn't sure how > well they work. Sounds too good to be true - no pump, etc. Are you > getting *all* your hot water from it, or are you assisting with another > energy source (gas, electric, etc). Also, do you have the single-panel > or the double-panel version? Jeff Owens responds: We have a single panel and it works well. In our area the cloud cover requires that we have an backup heat source (electric). The big advantage of the copper cricket is its freeze proof design. The outside loop contains water-alcohol which is feed into a heat exchanger. The disadvantages are initial cost and hard water problems. The heat exchanger does not function very well with hard water and must be flushed every few months. We have soft water, so this is not a problem. For us the cricket was cost effective because of tax credits. Without the tax credits it would have taken over 10 years for pay back. The design is interesting, in that there are no moving parts. Both fluid loops work by the principle that warm water rises. The inside loop is between the heat exchanger and a water tank. This tank can be the conventional water heater, but a separate tank can also be used. We did find one other interesting cost savings. If the backup heat source is put on a timer and only used if the sun fails, a big savings in energy occurs. I am not clear exactly what is happening here, but keeping records and reading meters says it is so. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 12:17:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17069; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:17:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05316; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:20:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09294; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:19:02 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09251; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:18:59 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA10951 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:18:47 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: food shortages Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:14:48 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 24 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1161 Status: RO X-Status: Bonni Brooks wrote: > I second this. I can't remember the source, but it was reliable, that > said the world could sustainably support an obscene number of people - > 45 billion? 50 billion? on a Japanese-style diet. The problem is not > one of population, but of distribution. Jeff Owens replies: Your data may be correct and we can feed a huge population. But some questions still remain: 1. Is it really sustainable? Using existing food systems? 2. How would an energy crisis impact our ability to feed everyone? 3. What would the quality of life be like with this population? 4. When we reach 50 billion, will the problem go away? I can not state with conviction that these questions have answers. But, I can say that life in crowded environments is not ideal. The trend now is to use the resources until they are gone. Ignore the problems with pollution. Ignore the fate of animals that are displaced. Ignore the native cultures who give up their land. Ignore the nuclear waste storage problem. Ignore the fact that some forests are having trouble. The list goes on and on. Where/how do we stop. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 12:21:39 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19638; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:21:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05197; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:19:32 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09357; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:19:06 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09249; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:18:59 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA10949 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:18:45 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Food Systems Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:56:21 -0500 Message-Id: <5KPQlS9cpsOE069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: Lines: 40 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1382 Status: RO X-Status: > What's the Welsh rotation system? I personally am > very interested in rotation schemes in general. One of my farming relatives > has recommended a wheat>sunflower rotation to me in the past. My dad used > a corn>oats rotation before the days of chemical inputs. Clint, I think what we call the Welsh rotation system is also called Seymour Rotation. It goes like this: 1. add compost. 2. potatos 3. lime soil (wood ashes) 4. brassicas 5. peas and beans 6. roots We switched steps 4 & 5 around. I believe that is called the LD Hills variation. > For backyard gardeners and homesteaders I developed a simple beginner > scheme for "The Holistic Garden" that has worked well for me: > > POT>BEA>BRO>COR > > POT-That's potato, not hemp > BEA-is a combination of bush beans, cowpeas and soybeans. > BRO-is a combination of broccoli, collards, turnips and onions. > COR-is sweet corn interplanted with pole beans and squash. The two rotation schemes look somewhat similar. Currently, we are having problems with the potato cycle. We keep developing soil borne diseases. Since potatos produce so much food for so little work, it would be interesting to improve the potato step. This year we may try some of the new tubers from the Andes to see if it is possible to alternate them with potatos. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 17 12:59:43 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08593; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:59:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15596; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:00:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11083; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:00:26 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11017; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:00:20 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA13655 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:00:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:00:11 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Homestead Tour Update To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2134 Status: RO X-Status: Hi y'all - OK, I finally went back through my email and assembled the first Host Volunteer list for the Homestead Tour. I'll be maintaining this list, so please let me know if you want your homestead added or if you have updates/changes. Many thanks to the brave souls who have already signed up to be Host Volunteers - let's see if we can get a few more! Also, if you use this list and get out to visit one of the homesteads, you are *required* to tell us all about your visit :) --------------------------------8< cut here 8<----------------------------- Homestead Mailing List Homestead Tour --------- ------- ---- --------- ---- What is the Homestead Tour? The Homestead Mailing List Homestead Tour is actually just a bunch of really nice homesteaders (Host Volunteers) who have agreed to allow some nosy beginners to drop by from time to time and observe a working homestead. The Tour isn't set for any particular date - just contact a Host Volunteer and arrange a visit. Some Host Volunteers will also allow you to help out around the place (for no compensation other than the educational value you'll receive) - check the list and check with the Host Volunteer for details. "Visit or help" means the Host can find something for you to help with while you visit if you want, "Visit" means just come by and visit, sans overalls. The only rule is: contact the Host Volunteer and arrange a visit - don't drop by unannounced! Host Volunteers, By State (last update - 3/17/95): ------------------------------------------------- Here is the list of Host Volunteers. If you'd like to add your homestead to the list, or if you have updates or corrections, please send them to: aevans@cais.com Ohio ---- Union County: Mark & Terri Savoie tstahl@aol.com (513) 982-3019 Visit or help Children welcome Oregon ------ Clackamas County: Jeff Owens kowens@teleport.com (503) 630-2317 Visit Tennessee --------- Putnam County: Pat Lenzo PBL5890@TNTECH.edu (615) 858-3015 (eves. and weekends) Visit or help Vermont ------- Bennington: Julie & Steve Chamay jchamay@williams.edu (802) 823-5606 Visit or help From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 18 10:17:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12020; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:17:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhpl10282; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:18:03 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08452; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:16:47 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08422; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:16:46 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhpk09950; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:14:39 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA14585 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:14:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:14:11 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Magazines To: Homestead Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1970 Status: RO X-Status: Matt - Yes, there is indeed magazine info on the homepage - check under "Print Media" in each of the subject areas. That doesn't excuse anyone from passing along their favorite magazines, however :) We need to add more to the pages. And yes, I only put magazines on the homepage for which I have up-to-date subscription info, so please include that as well. Also, if you have ftp access but not Web access, you can grab the raw HTML docs for the pages by downloading everything via anonymous ftp from: cais.com: /pub/aevans/homestead/* general.html contains most of the magazine info, but there are some others scattered in the other subject areas. Once again, for the record, the Homestead Home Page URL is: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homestead/homestd.html On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Matthew W. Hamel wrote: > I've heard people mention several magazines lately and I was wondering if > we couldn't get a list together like we did with the homesteading-style > catalogs. Any takers? (And I know that Mother Earth News is a yuppie > rag ;) Seriously, the only remotely rural mags I can get at the local > library are the aforementioned bird cage liner, Harrowsmith Country Life > (there's another 'un!), Back Home and Country Journal. I'm not > specifically interested in Agribusiness mags, just good practical or > inspirational stuff. I know it's out there..... > > (My apologies to Andrew if this is on the homepage) > Matt Hamel > mhamel@ashland.edu > > In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 18 10:27:39 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14232; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:27:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhpm11204; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:31:28 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13436; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:30:15 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13418; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:30:13 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhpl09709; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:25:21 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA14949 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:24:54 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Book and Magazine Recommendations To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1153 Status: RO X-Status: In order to make it as easy as possible for people to find the books and magazines we recommend on the homepage (when special-ordering, or getting them through interlibrary loan, etc.), I've tried to include the following info: Books: * Author(s) * Full Title * Publisher * Pub Date * ISBN * Brief description Magazines: * Title * Publisher * Subscription address/phone * Subscription rate * Publication frequency (monthly, bimonthly, quarterly, etc.) * Brief description If your recommendations have not yet appeared on the homepage, it's probably because I don't yet have this info. Grabbing a copy of the recommended item and copying this info into a mail message would save me a great deal of sleuthing time :) +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 18 14:10:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12055; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 14:10:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA00936; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:46:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01635; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:54:18 -0500 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01623; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:54:16 -0500 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id WAA25968 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 22:54:05 -0800 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 22:54:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199503180654.WAA25968@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Getting off the mark Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1052 Status: RO X-Status: As was pointed out by someone else we have been getting off the mark lately. The discussion has moved on to world issues while at the same time we talk about tractors. I think it is all relavent. The whole issue of honesteading as it is currently defined includes all of those things. It is people who see that things need to change and these people are not going to wait for someone else to do it. We may differ as to what is wrong and how it needs to be changed but we are at least discussing it and some have taken the extra steps to implement. It may be that some of us hold opinions that others think are completly wrong. What is important is that we all respect the opinions and try to learn something from the discussion, I know I have. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 18 15:19:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04455; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:19:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA07373; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:19:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02676; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:19:26 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02656; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:19:24 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA22717 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 12:19:13 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: What is homesteading Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 12:55:44 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 60 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2844 Status: RO X-Status: It might be interesting to try and define homesteading. So here are my random thoughts. Small farming is considered homesteading by some, but to me the focus of farming is on profit and the house and family are not always the prime emphasis. Homesteading also is interested in farming, but the emphasis is on supporting the family and surviving. With this definition a homestead might include an urban family who utilize their land or resources to support the family. Another characteristic of homesteaders is a self reliant attitude. Our society has become one of specialists and has progressed to the point that people look to experts rather than attempt original thinking. If there is one key to homesteading, then I think it is self reliance. It often bothers me to see how many people do not perform basic things like house maintenance, auto maintenance, life planning, education, food processing, investment decisions, etc. The arguments given are usually time and lack of skills. Sometimes these are valid arguments, but usually it is just a case of conditioning. We are use to listening to the experts, and paying them to provide a service. In most cases we pay them with money which can be converted to time at some job. It is interesting to calculate how long one has to work to produce after tax income for buying services. Whoops, starting to get off topic . What I want to talk about is conditioning (homestead finance might be another interesting topic though). Anyway, there are two topics which jolted my conscious into realizing that my model of life was wrong. A few years ago (don't ask how many) I took courses in propaganda and also in the history of invention. What these courses said was that propaganda is constantly around each of us and we have to make an effort to keep alert and see the real message. This is one area where we have to be the expert. The history course showed how inventions are usually made by ordinary people who have the right information. It also showed how trial and error, along with willingness to fail a few times was the normal world of invention. So, if it is our responsibility to always question and if we have the potential to perform as well as the experts, so what? To me this means self reliance is always and option which we should consider constantly. The next question is: how often should we decide on self reliance? My feeling is to try self reliance on everything we can learn to enjoy and have the time to pursue. This joy of creation, learning, and working can be used to reduce costs and eventually cut the umbilical to forced work. So, homesteading is a self-reliant group with a focus on the growth of the family and its environment. Did I miss anything? Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 18 15:51:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14516; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:51:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA09071; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:45:32 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11525; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:45:37 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11516; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:45:36 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA27340 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:45:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 15:45:26 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: What is homesteading To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1130 Status: RO X-Status: D Jeff - I agree, small farming is not necessarily homesteading. Homesteading is more than just small farming. Subsistance farming is the *food-raising* part of homesteading. A homestead to me is a largely self-contained life-support system for a family, fueled by nature and sweat. It should not be hooked up to the IV tubes of society, like an intensive-care patient in a coma, like a typical suburban house. It should work in harmony with its surroundings and with the seasons. Many farms, large and small, still fail that last bit - their owners try to live like they're in the suburbs, because that's what they're "supposed" to strive for in our society (must be true, TV says so). +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 19 00:27:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26167; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:27:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA22083; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:29:38 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26744; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:28:33 -0500 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26732; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:28:31 -0500 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id VAA11976 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 21:28:18 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 21:28:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199503190528.VAA11976@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: An information source Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2445 Status: RO X-Status: These discussions about the meanimg of homesteading and its need in the future are very interesting and I hope we continue them. Meanwhile this list should also provide other more immediate information. I have a lot of knowledge from my own library and life experience. If any have questions on the following topics, I will be more than glad to pass along what information and experience I have. Farming and history: I grew up on a Missouri dirt farm in the 50s and 60s. I like to tell people I grew up in the 30s because that is how rural life was then. We did not have electricty for a long time. ( this is where I have problems with some of the budget cutting in Washington. REA is what brought electricity to us.) We cooked with wood for a summer and used an out house for many years. I never used a telephone until the last 2 months of my senior year in high school. My first 4 years of school were in a one room school house. From this I have a deep interest in the history of agriculture and rural america. I have several reference books about antique tractors and implements and I always willing to talk about antique tractors. Beekeeping: In spokane I had several hives and made a bit of money from them. Sometime this spring I will be getting restarted. Again i have several references and can answere questions. Woodworking: I have a complete woodworking shop but little time to build much. I am afraid that I am one of those that seems to talk more than do. Whatevr block of time I can set aside gets filled by other things. I do have a very small collection of antique tool and I am trying to move toward more hand work. Gardening: I do have a library and some experience but as I read this mail list I see that others have more. I am still willing to answere what I can. Mechanics: I did work for a time as an auto mechanic and in a front end shop. The only problem is that that was before the modern computer controlled cars. I do know how to fix the old ones and I have every reference I can find on Corvairs. I addition I have experience with carpentry, blacksmithing, metal work. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 19 00:41:23 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29751; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:41:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA22760; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:41:26 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29603; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:41:00 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29594; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:40:58 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA140461648; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:40:48 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:40:48 -0500 From: LynnHWeg@aol.com Message-Id: <950319004047_53916047@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Favorite authors Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 172 Status: RO X-Status: Ruth Stout also wrote "How to have a green thumb without an aching back" which teaches sheet composting in the garden. This has saved me lots of money and hours of effort. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 19 18:53:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18551; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 18:53:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16012; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 18:53:38 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14488; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 18:53:40 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14473; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 18:53:37 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA07271 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 15:53:25 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Homestead books Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 16:36:52 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199503190528.VAA11976@happy.qualcomm.com> Lines: 46 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1305 Status: RO X-Status: Here are some books that we use fairly often. If the book is already on the list, then this is just a vote for the books usefulness. The Owner-Build Homestead Ken Kern Owner Builder Publications, 1975 The Farmer's Dog John Holmes Popular Dogs Publishing, 1984 The Four-Season Harvest Eliot Coleman R. R. Donneley & Sons, 1992 The Bread machine Cookbook IV (Whole grains & natural sugars) Donna German Bristol Publishing, 1992 How to Survive Without a Salary Charles Long Horizon Publishing, 1981 The Handbook for Fruit Explorers Ram Fishman North American Fruit Explorers, 1986 NAFEX is an organization of people who experiment with fruit trees. It has a periodic newsletter which is consists of articles and letter submitted by members. I recommend it for anyone interested in fruit trees. The handbook above is part of the membership fees. I don't have the current address, if anyone wants it I will post it when the next newsletter arrives. I read somewhere that Eliot Coleman bought land from the Nearings and somewhat follows in their foot steps. His book seems to be practical data from someone who is serious about food production. Ken Kern's book is a little out of date, but fun reading. It has the feel of someone who has had hands on experience. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 19 20:04:43 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11375; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 20:04:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyhuq06263; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 20:08:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14036; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 20:07:04 -0500 Received: from netcom16.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14022; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 20:07:02 -0500 Received: by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.10/Netcom) id RAA07144; Sun, 19 Mar 1995 17:05:39 -0800 From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Message-Id: <199503200105.RAA07144@netcom16.netcom.com> Subject: More books, catalogs and sources To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 17:05:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <950319140621_54213952@aol.com> from "LCSkinner@aol.com" at Mar 19, 95 02:06:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1053 Status: RO X-Status: For those who are looking for even more books, information sources and catalogs, you might wish to check out the misc.survivalism books.list and sources list. I posted version 0.17 of both of these today. While there are certainly parts of both lists that have nothing to do with homesteading, and there are things that some on this list might find objectionable for political or other grounds, there is a lot of pertinent information. If there is a demand, I could post them to this list, but they are fairly large - the books list is about 59K, and the sources list is about 28k. -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, rickd@primenet.com I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 22 11:04:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16344; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:04:38 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA12350; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:02:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19330; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:02:49 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19218; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:02:45 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA09784 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 1995 08:02:31 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Book Review Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 08:20:13 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199503212039.MAA09520@qualcomm.com> Lines: 18 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 721 Status: RO X-Status: This year a new gardening book was published and appears in the Real Goods catalog. The title is "Solar Gardening" by Leandre & Gretchen Poisson. Yesterday my wife got a copy from the library and I read parts of it. The cover has a promotion by Jeff Cox which says "The best book on season extending I've ever seen". The book does concentrate on solar season extenders and presents a somewhat unique system of rigid cloches. My overall impression is that the book is good, but not exceptional. The book is definitely worth checking out and reading. I personally would not buy the book because of the price ($25) and because it is not a reference tool which would be used often. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 23 08:27:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29053; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:27:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA24699; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:30:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27163; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:30:56 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27139; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:30:54 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA078375437; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:30:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:30:37 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950323083011_58468281@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: root crops Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 464 Status: RO X-Status: HAs anyone else noticed that potatoes and onions seem to be genuine staples? We eat one or the other and usually both everyday. Potatoes seem to yield way out of proportion to the care they need. I can understand why some places adopted them rapidly as the basic starch crop. As for onions, well, cooking wouldn't be the same wihtout them. The whole Allium family gets used in this house. We like the wild onions that grow around for stir fry and creamed onions. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 23 11:41:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18053; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:41:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21742; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:27:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14745; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:26:40 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14719; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:26:38 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HOH05PR2ZKDT15KR@tntech.edu>; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:28:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:28:52 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: Favorite authors To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HOH05PUAQADT15KR@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 609 Status: RO X-Status: > I'd like to add Ruth Stout who wrote "Marigolds and Peacock Manure" about > low input horticultural techniques, Correction here...Ruth Stout, sister of mystery writer Rex Stout, was the permanent deep mulch lady as someone also said. Wrote 2-3 books on the system. Janet Gillespie wrote the above book. Somehow I think it's Peacock Manure and Marigolds, but I might be wrong. In it she mentions a old folks way to get rid of woodchucks (some places called groundhogs). I've used the method twice and it works, but I'm hesitant to post it because I don't want to be laughed (or flamed) off the Net. Pat From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 23 21:18:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20969; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:18:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA21709; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:22:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03216; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:22:19 -0500 Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03178; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:22:16 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA01081 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:22:02 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:22:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:22:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199503240222.AA05388@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> To: homestead-digest@world.std.com Subject: Offerings.... Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 770 Status: RO X-Status: Since I am not a current homesteader, and normally suck up more information than I give out I am going to offer other help if anyone needs it. I own a small Computer buisness. I sell and repair PC's and their assorted add-on toys. If anyone needs help with their computer or need to buy parts, let me know. it seems like most of you own small buisness, so I can get you connected to computer distributors. That way, you can get all you parts at wholesale and then sell them to yourself. If you want phone numbers, etc let me know privately and I will send them to you. If the response is great enough, I will send them to the group. Also, don't feel shy to ask me to help trouble shoot a PC. THanks everyone....Mike (wannabe a homesteader REAl bad!) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 25 09:25:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05862; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:25:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA05812; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:20:26 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29681; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:20:28 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29666; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:20:26 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA195191212; Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:20:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:20:12 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950325092009_60731952@aol.com> To: homestead-digest@world.std.com Subject: A book Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 139 Status: RO X-Status: A I'm a writer. Who wants to contribute? I'll edit and fill, you folks, with your vast and varied knowledge, give me something to work with. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 31 16:22:27 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02792; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:22:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA01066; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:11:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03467; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:01:17 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03281; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:00:46 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA06463 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:00:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:00:01 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: LONG: Making Soy Milk at Home To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 4755 Status: RO X-Status: I originally wasn't going to post this, but after sending it individually to several folks and then receiving more requests, I decided to go ahead. If you aren't interested, get your finger ready on the delete key ;) Making Soy Milk --------------- (based on directions from Louise Hagler's _Tofu Cookery_) Equipment - 2 large pots - stockpot size (big enough to hold the volume of milk you want to make, with some room to spare - I use 1.5 - 2 gal.) Muslin straining cloth (cheesecloth will do, but muslin is reusable and works better) A large collander or strainer A blender or food-processor A heatproof (Pyrex, etc.) measuring cup Ingredients - soy beans, soaked overnight in lots of water if dry (I forgot to mention that in my previous posts) water Procedure - * Measure your soaked soybeans to see how many cups you have. In one stockpot, put 3 cups of water for every cup of soaked soybeans you intend to use. Bring to a boil. * Meanwhile, put the soaked soybeans, two cups at a time, into the blender and process until ground into a coarse paste (not too fine, though - it only takes a few seconds in my food processor) * Stir the soybean paste into the boiling water when it reaches full boil. Reduce heat and simmer for 15-20 minutes. Keep a cup of cold water handy and keep an eye on the boil - in the first few minutes it has a tendency to foam up - if it does, dowse it with some of the cold water to calm it down. You can also skim off some of the foam, but be careful not to take out too much soy pulp with it. * Line the collander or strainer with the muslin or several layers of cheesecloth and place it over the second, empty (and clean) stockpot. Remove the soy mixture from the heat. Using a heatproof (Pyrex, etc.) measuring cup, scoop the soy mixture into the collander, slowly, so it doesn't overflow. * The second stockpot contains your finished soy milk. Pour it into a closable container and refridgerate it when it reaches room temperature. You may optionally sweeten it to taste (which makes it more like cow's milk) by adding a small amount of honey or brown rice syrup (works best, IMHO). You can also add vanilla if you like. I generally don't sweeten at bottling time, because you can always add it when you use it, and it keeps longer unsweetened. That's it! It's very simple - I've gotten so I can make up a batch while talking on the phone, etc. Making Tofu ----------- If you make alot of soy milk, you can make tofu as well. It takes about two gallons of soy milk to make a useful amount of tofu, and more is even better. You can proceed to make tofu by simply following the directions above for unsweetened soy milk, then: * Dilute 1/2 cup lemon juice or vinegar (cider or rice) in 1.5 cups hot water. * While the freshly-strained soymilk is still hot (about 185F) stir in a slow circular motion with a large spoon or paddle. Stop the paddle upright to create turbulence and immediately add all but about 1/4 cup of the vinegar solution. Cover to retain heat and let stand undisturbed for 5 minutes. Milk should have curdled into large, white curds. If not, poke gently to activate curdling and add remaining vinegar solution. Let stand 2-3 more minutes. * Now you have curds and whey. For extra-firm tofu, place pot back on heat and boil the curds in the whey for a few minutes. * Using a ladle and a small strainer, dip out as much whey as possible - immerse the strainer part-way into the whey and ladle out the whey inside the strainer. You can save the whey - it is a natural detergent and can be used to cleanse your tofu-making equipment when you are all done! * Line a collander with muslin or several layers of cheesecloth. Dump the curds into the collander and gather the edges of the muslin together to cover the curds. place a small plate that fits inside the collander over the curds and place a heavy weight (a half-gallon jar filled with water works well) on top. Press for 20-30 minutes. The longer the press time, the firmer the tofu. * Remove the cake of tofu from the cloth and store in the refigerator in a resealable container. Fill the container with water to cover the cake. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 31 16:29:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07301; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:29:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyjmj20266; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:17:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03467; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:01:17 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03281; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:00:46 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA06463 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:00:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:00:01 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: LONG: Making Soy Milk at Home To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 4755 Status: RO X-Status: I originally wasn't going to post this, but after sending it individually to several folks and then receiving more requests, I decided to go ahead. If you aren't interested, get your finger ready on the delete key ;) Making Soy Milk --------------- (based on directions from Louise Hagler's _Tofu Cookery_) Equipment - 2 large pots - stockpot size (big enough to hold the volume of milk you want to make, with some room to spare - I use 1.5 - 2 gal.) Muslin straining cloth (cheesecloth will do, but muslin is reusable and works better) A large collander or strainer A blender or food-processor A heatproof (Pyrex, etc.) measuring cup Ingredients - soy beans, soaked overnight in lots of water if dry (I forgot to mention that in my previous posts) water Procedure - * Measure your soaked soybeans to see how many cups you have. In one stockpot, put 3 cups of water for every cup of soaked soybeans you intend to use. Bring to a boil. * Meanwhile, put the soaked soybeans, two cups at a time, into the blender and process until ground into a coarse paste (not too fine, though - it only takes a few seconds in my food processor) * Stir the soybean paste into the boiling water when it reaches full boil. Reduce heat and simmer for 15-20 minutes. Keep a cup of cold water handy and keep an eye on the boil - in the first few minutes it has a tendency to foam up - if it does, dowse it with some of the cold water to calm it down. You can also skim off some of the foam, but be careful not to take out too much soy pulp with it. * Line the collander or strainer with the muslin or several layers of cheesecloth and place it over the second, empty (and clean) stockpot. Remove the soy mixture from the heat. Using a heatproof (Pyrex, etc.) measuring cup, scoop the soy mixture into the collander, slowly, so it doesn't overflow. * The second stockpot contains your finished soy milk. Pour it into a closable container and refridgerate it when it reaches room temperature. You may optionally sweeten it to taste (which makes it more like cow's milk) by adding a small amount of honey or brown rice syrup (works best, IMHO). You can also add vanilla if you like. I generally don't sweeten at bottling time, because you can always add it when you use it, and it keeps longer unsweetened. That's it! It's very simple - I've gotten so I can make up a batch while talking on the phone, etc. Making Tofu ----------- If you make alot of soy milk, you can make tofu as well. It takes about two gallons of soy milk to make a useful amount of tofu, and more is even better. You can proceed to make tofu by simply following the directions above for unsweetened soy milk, then: * Dilute 1/2 cup lemon juice or vinegar (cider or rice) in 1.5 cups hot water. * While the freshly-strained soymilk is still hot (about 185F) stir in a slow circular motion with a large spoon or paddle. Stop the paddle upright to create turbulence and immediately add all but about 1/4 cup of the vinegar solution. Cover to retain heat and let stand undisturbed for 5 minutes. Milk should have curdled into large, white curds. If not, poke gently to activate curdling and add remaining vinegar solution. Let stand 2-3 more minutes. * Now you have curds and whey. For extra-firm tofu, place pot back on heat and boil the curds in the whey for a few minutes. * Using a ladle and a small strainer, dip out as much whey as possible - immerse the strainer part-way into the whey and ladle out the whey inside the strainer. You can save the whey - it is a natural detergent and can be used to cleanse your tofu-making equipment when you are all done! * Line a collander with muslin or several layers of cheesecloth. Dump the curds into the collander and gather the edges of the muslin together to cover the curds. place a small plate that fits inside the collander over the curds and place a heavy weight (a half-gallon jar filled with water works well) on top. Press for 20-30 minutes. The longer the press time, the firmer the tofu. * Remove the cake of tofu from the cloth and store in the refigerator in a resealable container. Fill the container with water to cover the cake. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Apr 2 09:13:32 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11928; Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:13:32 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA29992; Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:11:56 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15410; Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:11:47 -0400 Received: from sol.ashland.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15393; Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:11:44 -0400 Received: for mhamel@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.10/931002.1044) id JAA21404; Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:13:46 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 09:13:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew W. Hamel" Subject: Technology To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: Homestead Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1028 Status: RO X-Status: When we were discussing this issue a while back I remembered reading this. The author lists his qualifications for technological innovation. 1. The new tool should be cheaper than the one it replaces. 2. It should be at least as small in scale as the one it replaces. 3. It should do work that is clearly and demonstrably better than the one it replaces. 4. It should use less energy than the one it replaces. 5. If possible, it should use some form of solar energy, such as that of the body. 6. It should be repairable by a person of ordinary intelligence, provided that he or she has the necessary tools. 7. It should be purchasable and repairable as near to home as possible. 8. It should come from a small privately owned shop or store that will take it back for maintenance and repair. 9. It should not replace or disrupt anything good that already exists, and this includes family and community relationships. Matt Hamel mhamel@ashland.edu In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 3 11:03:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22944; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:03:51 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA24361; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:53:50 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12123; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:58:51 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12087; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:58:49 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyjwm20668; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:00:38 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA18143 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:55:37 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Habitat for Humanity To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1872 Status: RO X-Status: Hi y'all - I'd like to register a ringing endorsement for Habitat for Humanity. If you're not familiar with this excellent organization, they build homes for people in need. But rather than simply giving handouts, they require the prospective owners to put in hours during the construction, and they must still pay for any costs (through a special low-interest loan program). Labor and many materials are donated. Habitat has chapters all over the US and in some foreign countries as well. They encourage people from the local community to get involved with nearby projects. There are several reasons why I'm bringing them up here - first, I think this is an excellent model for a social program that doesn't require the government to run it, and is meaningful on a local level. Second, it's a great way to meet some really nice people. And third, if you're planning to build your own home some day (like I am) it's an excellent way to learn a variety of construction skills. The projects are usually overseen by professional contractors, and it's a great opportunity to work with them in a low-pressure, friendly environment and really learn alot. I just spent Saturday roofing a Habitat house in my neighborhood - before Saturday, I had no idea how to even begin roofing a house. Now I know it's not so scary after all, and every time I walk past that house it's going to remind me that it's something I can do. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 4 08:54:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18922; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:54:53 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA27938; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:58:54 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26957; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:57:53 -0400 Received: from aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26933; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:57:51 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyjzu15080; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:43:53 -0400 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA192199360; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:42:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:42:40 -0400 Message-Id: <950404084238_71190552@aol.com> To: homestead-digest@world.std.com Subject: References Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 453 Status: RO X-Status: Urich's listing of periodicals gave the following addresses: Farm Buildings and Engineering (ISSN 0265-5373) Farm and Rural Building Centre National Agricultural Centre Stoneleigh, Kenilworth Warwickshire, CV8 2LG England Structural Engineer Institute of Structural Engineers 11 Upper Belgrave St. London SW1X 8BH England Engineering News Mechanical Engineering Publications LTD P.O. Box 24 Northgate Ave. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk IP32 6BW England From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 4 08:54:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18922; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:54:53 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA27938; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:58:54 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26957; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:57:53 -0400 Received: from aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26933; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:57:51 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyjzu15080; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:43:53 -0400 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA192199360; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:42:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:42:40 -0400 Message-Id: <950404084238_71190552@aol.com> To: homestead-digest@world.std.com Subject: References Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 453 Status: RO X-Status: D Urich's listing of periodicals gave the following addresses: Farm Buildings and Engineering (ISSN 0265-5373) Farm and Rural Building Centre National Agricultural Centre Stoneleigh, Kenilworth Warwickshire, CV8 2LG England Structural Engineer Institute of Structural Engineers 11 Upper Belgrave St. London SW1X 8BH England Engineering News Mechanical Engineering Publications LTD P.O. Box 24 Northgate Ave. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk IP32 6BW England From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 4 19:47:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23620; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:47:01 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA06311; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:45:26 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07139; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:45:04 -0400 Received: from news.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07057; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:45:01 -0400 Received: from qualcomm.com by news.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01994; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:11:32 -0400 Received: from qualcomm.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQykax07378; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:51:38 -0400 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id MAA27132 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:36:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199504041936.MAA27132@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Apr 1995 11:35:55 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: External perceptions of a self sufficent lifestyle. Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1959 Status: RO X-Status: The recent discussions about homestead financing has brought several things to mind. One problem (or non problem) is how others percieve your activities. By defination the self sufficent life style can be little different from proverty. In a society that values appearance, driving a car a few extra years is odd. Fixing cars, building furniture, growing a garden, not buying the latest fashions, are all percieved as marks of poverty. In many urban areas there are rules, often enforced by law, that limit such activities. CC&Rs often have rules against having a garage door open for anything other than moving a car in and out. Changing the oil can get you a nasty letter from the building permit department or the homeowners association. Rules that limit the type of plantings in the front yard will also prevent you from growing edible crops there. This is all done in the name of preserving property values because all of those activities are seen as a mark of poverty. Today we are seeing a massive movement of people from rural areas to cities. The average age of farmers and those in farming communities is moving upward. Kids cannot wait to get out of high school and move to the city. A few years in college shows them what they think is a better life and it becomes difficult to return to the rural. Population collects in cities and looks to the city for all its needs, turning its back on the rural areas. The movement back is to "mini ranchetes". Living in the country, being as self sufficient as possible is looked down upon. Living in a country home surrounded with "landscaping" is considered good. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Apr 5 11:33:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22089; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:33:30 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA02532; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:32:01 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19196; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:29:31 -0400 Received: from relay.hp.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19136; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:29:24 -0400 Received: from hpscit.sc.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.15/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA085145887; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:31:27 -0700 Received: by hpscit.sc.hp.com (1.37.109.15/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA246045886; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:31:26 -0700 From: Alan Fryer Message-Id: <199504051531.AA246045886@hpscit.sc.hp.com> Subject: Re: External perceptions of a self sufficent lifestyle. To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 8:31:26 PDT In-Reply-To: <199504041936.MAA27132@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Apr 04, 95 11:35 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3103 Status: RO X-Status: > > The recent discussions about homestead financing has brought several > things to mind. One problem (or non problem) is how others percieve your > activities. By defination the self sufficent life style can be little > different from proverty. In a society that values appearance, driving a car > a few extra years is odd. Fixing cars, building furniture, growing a > garden, not buying the latest fashions, are all percieved as marks of poverty. > > In many urban areas there are rules, often enforced by law, that > limit such activities. CC&Rs often have rules against having a garage door > open for anything other than moving a car in and out. Changing the oil can > get you a nasty letter from the building permit department or the homeowners > association. Rules that limit the type of plantings in the front yard will > also prevent you from growing edible crops there. This is all done in the > name of preserving property values because all of those activities are seen > as a mark of poverty. > > Today we are seeing a massive movement of people from rural areas to > cities. The average age of farmers and those in farming communities is > moving upward. Kids cannot wait to get out of high school and move to the > city. A few years in college shows them what they think is a better life > and it becomes difficult to return to the rural. Population collects in > cities and looks to the city for all its needs, turning its back on the > rural areas. The movement back is to "mini ranchetes". Living in the > country, being as self sufficient as possible is looked down upon. Living > in a country home surrounded with "landscaping" is considered good. > > > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com > > Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy > model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible > 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours > > Reading Donald's brings up some ancient memories. I used to work for a high tech company located in the sticks. I was one of the few city boys employed there. It seems that management encouraged the hiring of "plow-boys" (their term, not mine). There was a perception on managements part that "plow-boys" knew the value of hard work and would make better employees. I asked the new-hires about it; the universal response was: "Yeah, I grew up on a farm, it was hard work, and that's why I went to college and have a soft desk job. I don't want anything having to do with working that hard again." Incidentally, both of my parents grew up on either farms or small farming communities. My father will wax poetically about the charms of living in the country but I notice that he left the country almost 50 years ago and hasn't been back since. Me, I'd love to get my hands on my grandfather's ranch. Unfortunately it was sold off 30 years ago because noone in my parents generation wanted to adopt that particular style of life. Alan Fryer afryer@hpscit.sc.hp.com From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 6 08:27:03 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28983; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:03 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA20290; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:28:03 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18161; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:51 -0400 Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18137; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:48 -0400 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA02643 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:43 -0400 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199504061227.AA03456@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: homestead-digest V1 #9 To: homestead-digest@world.std.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:42 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199504060527.AA07673@world.std.com> from "homestead-digest-approval@world.std.com" at Apr 6, 95 01:27:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1419 Status: O X-Status: > ------------------------------ > From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) > Date: Mon, 3 Apr 95 16:01:24 EDT > Subject: Re: Habitat for Humanity > > Just thought I'd say "Here, here!" for Habitat. I've always thought it > was a great program, and I might have the chance to participate for the > first time this summer. > Does anyone happen to know how to find a local chapter? I have always shy-ed away from Habitat for Humanity because the only time I encountered it was through religious settings. (I am agnostic, and get bothered by religion. I think it is good for many people, but I always hate religions more the more I am around them...sorry) > --------------- RE: Financing A Homstead I have found properties about 1hr from State college that have been very cheap. The properties are listed as "Hunting Grounds." I am going to call today and see what type of zoning they have. I was guessing that they were safe to build a home on, but just didn't have any available access to electricity, water, and sewer. One property was 146acres for $55K, and another was 250acres with state parks on two sides that was going for around $95K. I personally have no interest because I want to get as far away from this conservative republican (sorry ... it is all that capitalism thing) state of Pennsylvania. If anyone else is interested, let me know and I can get you phone numbers, etc... ***** Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 6 09:46:37 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28767; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:46:37 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA00389; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:45:18 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09657; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:45:02 -0400 Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09485; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:44:45 -0400 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08604; Thu, 6 Apr 95 09:46:52 EDT Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15050; Thu, 6 Apr 95 09:44:44 EDT Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06546; Thu, 6 Apr 95 09:44:41 EDT Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 09:44:41 EDT From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9504061344.AA06546@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Habitat Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 530 Status: RO X-Status: > Does anyone happen to know how to find a local chapter? I have > always shy-ed away from Habitat for Humanity because the only time I > encountered it was through religious settings. (I am agnostic, and > get bothered by religion. I think it is good for many people, but I > always hate religions more the more I am around them...sorry) Try the white pages of the phone book. If there's no listing, you might call my local group, and they can probably point you to one near you. The number here is: (513)277-3242 Barb From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 6 10:06:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07594; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:06:34 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA03113; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:00:45 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19743; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:00:20 -0400 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19694; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:00:17 -0400 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.11/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA10613 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:00:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199504061400.HAA10613@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 05:59:40 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Habitat Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 843 Status: O X-Status: >Try the white pages of the phone book. If there's no listing, you might >call my local group, and they can probably point you to one near you. >The number here is: > >(513)277-3242 The way I was able to get a local number was to call information for Americus Georgia to get the number of the main office. A call to them got me the correct local number. I wound up not helping them because they were doing all the local work in Mexico which is to far away for me. Besides I believe that there is much to be done in my local area. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Apr 7 15:08:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20482; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:08:29 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA16935; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:55:52 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14495; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:55:49 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14382; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:55:37 -0400 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA21735 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:55:31 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: classical homesteading Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 11:00:53 -0400 Message-Id: Lines: 134 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 6014 Status: RO X-Status: Classical Homesteading Well, the rain has driven me indoors and halted spring planting, so here is another inflammatory statement about homesteading . What is classical homesteading? The classical concept of homesteading seems to be one of living in the boonies and utilizing the resources at hand. To do this one would quit their job, buy a remote piece of land, and start homesteading. This concept was popularized in the 60's and was attempted by large numbers of people. Typically, the heat source was wood. Food was a combination of animal products and a large garden. Methods and tools were mostly borrowed from a previous era. The motivation was a simpler life, away from city problems. Is classical homesteading practical? Classical homesteading does not work very well for lots of reasons. The major one is money. The new homesteaders found that the homestead had a difficult time producing the income they wanted, so they had to have a second job. The second problem was work. After a few years of hard work, the fun was gone and everyone wanted to quit. The third problem is that most new homesteaders do not have the skills and mental state needed to be happy at homesteading. Very soon the idealistic expectations give way to harsh reality and the new homestead becomes a trap. The concept of a simpler life turns out to be somewhat false, and the city problems were replaced with different ones. What is alternative homesteading? A few people do succeed at homesteading, so it is possible. But, are they just normal people? What attributes do they share? Is there a better way to homestead? The people I have known who succeeded at homesteading were resourceful and not scared of hard work. Not all of them had to work hard, but they understood hard work and were motivated to find ways of avoiding it. Most of them had an active mind or background which helped solve problems. This concept of homesteading being somewhat mental surprises some people, but I believe it is true. One way to think about it is that the homestead provides no discipline, direction, or methods. At the same time it has endless options, and possible activities. The only way to cope with this is by mental conditioning from ones youth, or creative planning. So, how would an alternative homesteader start out? First, recognize that the problems of money, hard work, and mental preparedness need to be addressed. Second, take the best of old homestead ideas, and the latest technology, methods, and tools. What results is quite different from classical homesteading. The log cabin is gone, the tools are different, most of the animals are gone, and the land is probably smaller, the hunting is not as good, society is not helpful, the children are less supportive, etc. Thus, the definition of alternative homesteading is: Sustainable, cautious and somewhat self-reliant livestyle which borrows heavly from currently technlogy and the enviornmental movement. One way to deal with todays homesteading problems, is to make the work easier, minimize problems, and emphasize the enjoyable parts. Does alternative homesteading work? If we look at an alternative homesteader starting out, what happens? The idea of quitting work, selling the house, and jumping into homesteading would be rejected quickly. This does not solve the money, hard work, or mental conditioning problems. Better yet would be to keep the job, and start homesteading on a small scale. Drop out of society. Make a plan to solve the eventual money problems and test parts of the plan. Try to develop food preparation skills and stop buying at the grocery store. Buy food in bulk through food clubs, coop's, or directly from the farmers. Study solar housing. Study alternative energy systems. Study new ideas in agriculture. Study permaculture. Study, study, study. Would this method of homesteading work? Would it be as enjoyable? It worked for us, but most people would choose the city life which is easier. Once it becomes clear what is involved in homesteading, some of the appeal is lost. Why do people choose homesteading? It is generally understood that city life is easier and our society is now oriented towards city life. Homestead products are not worth much in the market, and wages in the city are high. The easy choice is to live in the city. Entertainment is readily available and all the services our taxes provide are close at hand. Medical facilities are close and everything is provided for a few dollars. The advantage of homesteading is a little more difficult to see. When the homestead money, work, and conditioning problems are solved, we are left with lots of freedom and time. We are usually living in a healthier environment and doing healthier activities. Some of us have a clearer conscious about our impact on the earth. Our struggle is to work with nature to provide food and shelter. The competition involved with jobs and city living is mostly gone. This annual task of providing food can be very rewarding and the cycles of nature can be joy. It can also be boring and drudgery. It all depends on how one defines happiness. There is another reason which makes homesteading appealing, and this is security. Civilization is constantly in a state of change and sometime this change can be a problem. What happens if one of the following disasters occur: 1. The oil runs out. 2. A major war starts. 3. A financial crisis occurs. 4. Food becomes scarce 5. Society starts to fail. 6. Water becomes polluted and scarce. 7. The cost of living increases dramatically. Not very probable you say. Well.. the news over the last few years and the history of civilization tells a different story. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Apr 7 16:12:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10695; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:12:08 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA27756; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:07:50 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07925; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:07:58 -0400 Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07878; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:07:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199504072007.AA07878@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4756; Fri, 07 Apr 95 16:06:40 EDT Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6818; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:04:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:04:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: composting toilets Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 723 Status: RO X-Status: Our septic system probably isn't going to last more than a few more years, and we're looking at trying to get off of it. The problem is that we have three children and will probably have 2-3 more, and the cost of a composting toilet that handles that capacity is formidable. Does anybody know of a way to provide composting toilets to a large family on one salary without having to take out a second mortgage??? thanks in advance, bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Apr 8 16:28:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19668; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:28:34 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA07245; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:29:06 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07205; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:28:58 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07196; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:28:57 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA06166 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:28:51 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Real Goods To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199504080326.AA26515@world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1310 Status: RO X-Status: Bonni - Real Goods Trading Co. is a mail-order business (they also have some retail stores in CA) that carries all kinds of alternative-energy and homesteading-related stuff. You can get a catalog by calling (800) 762-7325. They also have a web page with some interesting stuff - http://www.well.com/www/realgood/ On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, bonni brooks wrote: > Okay, maybe someone posted the info for Real Goods in the past, but > I didn't pay attention. What is this, anyway? Do they run a mail > order business? If so, where can I get the catalog? I'm interested. > > bonni > > IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak > ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine > NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic > | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Apr 8 17:28:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA09284; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:28:57 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA10756; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:27:56 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04232; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:27:44 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04216; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:27:43 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA08745 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:27:42 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:27:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Real Goods To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1180 Status: RO X-Status: I have to agree with Jeff - the regular Real Goods catalog has become just like so many other yuppie "green" catalogs, like Seventh Generation, etc. The Solar Living Sourcebook is the one you want to get, unless you only want to see toiletries, notepaper, and toys. I have to say though that some of the notecards they sell are very nice, but I'm biased because my sister-in-law sells her designs through EarthCare Paper, which was recently bought by Real Goods (and thus their products now show up in the Real Goods catalog). This is a cottage industry for my brother and his wife, who live on a small farm in Pennsylvania. Shameless plug - if you want to see some of her designs, check out: http://www.cais.com/aevans/randr/reneew.html +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 10 15:07:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10308; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:07:40 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA14330; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:58:00 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29197; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:57:42 -0400 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28871; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:57:15 -0400 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.11/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA26920 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:55:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199504101855.LAA26920@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:55:40 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: More from Wendell Berry Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 9057 Status: RO X-Status: D This is something else I pulled from Practicval Farmers of Iowa. Every time I try to express how I see things, I find that Mr. Berry has been there before and has done a much better job than I ever could. CONSERVING COMMUNITIES Wendell Berry (Editors note: The following is from a talk entitled Conserving Communities, given by Wendell Berry at the 1994 campout at Seed Savers Exchange, in Decorah. We reprint it here with their kind permission. The entire address appears in the Seed Savers 1994 Harvest Edition.) . . . the old opposition of country and city, which was never useful, is now more useless than ever. It is, in fact, damaging to everybody involved, as is the opposition of producers and consumers. These are not differences but divisions divisions that ought not to exist because they are to a considerable extent artificial, trumped up for the sake of illegitimate advantages. The so-called urban economy has been just as hard on urban communities as it has been on rural ones. These conventional affiliations are now meaningless, useful only to those in a position to profit from public bewilderment. A new political scheme of opposed parties, however, is beginning to take form. This is essentially a two-party system, and it divides over the fundamental issue of community. One of these parties holds that community has no value, the other holds that it does. One is the party of the global economy; the other I would call simply the party of local community. The global party is large, though not populous, immensely powerful and wealthy, self-aware, purposeful and tightly organized. The community party is only now becoming aware of itself, it is widely scattered, highly diverse, small though potentially numerous, weak though latently powerful, and poor though by no means without resources. We know pretty well the makeup of the party of the global economy, but who are the members of the party of local community? They are people who take a generous and neighborly view of self-preservation; they do not believe that they can survive and flourish by the rule of dog-eat-dog; they do not believe that they can succeed by defeating or destroying or using up everything but themselves. They want to preserve the precious things of nature and of human culture, and pass them on to their children. They want the world s fields and forests to be productive; they do not want them to be destroyed for the sake of production. They know you cannot be a democrat (small d) or a conservationist and at the same time a proponent of the supranational corporate economy. They believe they know from their experience that the neighborhood, the local community, is the proper place and reference of responsible life and work. They see that no commonwealth or community of interest can be defined by greed. They know that things connect that farming, for example, is connected to nature, and food to farming, and heath to food and they want to preserve the connections. They know that a healthy local community cannot be replaced by a market or an entertainment industry or an information highway. They know that, contrary to all the unmeaning and unmeant political talk about job creation, work ought not to be merely a bone thrown to the otherwise unemployed. They know that work ought to be necessary it ought to be good, it ought to be satisfying and dignifying to the people who do it, and genuinely useful and pleasing to the people for whom it is done. The party of local community, then, is a real party with a real platform and an agenda of real and doable work. And it has, we might add, a respectable history in the hundreds of efforts, over several decades, to preserve local nature or local health or to sell local products to local consumers. Now such efforts appear to be coming into their own, attracting interest and energy in a way they have not done before. People are seeing more clearly all the time the connections between conservation and economics. They are seeing that a community s health is largely determined by the way it makes its living. The natural membership of the community party consists of small farmers, ranchers and market gardeners, worried consumers, owners and employees of small shops, stores and other small businesses, community banks, self-employed people, religious people and conservationists. The aims of this party really are only two: the preservation of ecological diversity and integrity, and the renewal, on sound cultural and ecological principles, of local economies and local communities. And now we must ask how a sustainable local community (which is to say a sustainable local economy) might function. I am going to suggest a set of rules that I think such a community would have to follow. And I hasten to say that I do not understand these rules as predictions; I am not interested in foretelling the future. If these rules have any validity, that is because they apply now. Supposing that the members of a local community wanted their community to cohere, to flourish, and to last, they would: (1) Always ask of any proposed change or innovation: What, will this do to our community? How will this affect our common wealth? (2) Always include local nature the land, the water, the air, the native creatures within the membership of the community. (3) Always ask how local needs might be supplied from local sources, including the mutual help of neighbors. (4) Always supply local needs FIRST, and only then think of exporting products. (5) The community must understand the ultimate unsoundness of the industrial doctrine of labor saving if that implies poor work, unemployment, or any kind of pollution or contamination. (6) If it is not to be merely a colony of the national or the global economy, the community must develop properly scaled value-adding industries for local products. (7) It must also develop small-scale industries and businesses to support the local farm and/or forest economy. (8) It must strive to produce as much of its own energy as possible. (9) It must strive to increase earnings (in whatever form) within the community, and decrease expenditures outside the community. (10) Money paid into the local economy should circulate within the community for as long as possible before it is paid out. (11) If it is to last, a community must be able to afford to invest in itself it must maintain its properties, keep itself clean (without dirtying some other place), care for its old people, teach its children. (12) The old and the young must take care of one another. The young must learn from the old, not necessarily and not always in school. There must be no institutionalized child care and homes for the aged. The community knows and remembers itself by the assciation of old and young. (13) Costs now conventionally hidden or externalized must be accounted for. Whenever possible they must be debited against monetary income. (14) Community members must look into the possible uses of local currency, community-funded loan programs, systems of barter, and the like. (15) They should always be aware of the economic value of neighborliness as help, insurance, and so on. They must realize that in our time the costs of living are greatly increased by the loss of neighborhood, leaving people to face their calamities alone. (16) A rural community should always be acquainted with, and complexly connected with, community-minded people in nearby towns and cities. (17) A sustainable rural economy will be dependent on urban consumers loyal to local products. Therefore, we are talking about an economy that will always be more coop- erative than competitive. These rules are derived from western political and religious traditions, from the promptings of ecologists and certain agriculturists, and from common sense. They may seem radical, but only because the modern, national and global economies have been formed in almost perfect disregard of community and ecological interests. A community economy is not an economy in which well-placed persons can make a killing. It is not a killer economy. It is an economy whose aim is generosity and a well distributed and safeguarded abundance. If it seems unusual for modern people to hope and work for such an economy, then we must remind ourselves that a willingness to put the good of the community ahead of profit is hardly unprecedented among community business people and local banks. | Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 10 15:08:21 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10690; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:08:21 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA13545; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:53:21 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24493; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:52:56 -0400 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23043; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:51:03 -0400 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.11/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA26011 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:50:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199504101850.LAA26011@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:50:55 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Modern farming Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 7492 Status: RO X-Status: I pulled this off a web site for Practical Farmers of Iowa. In this he seems to be saying many of the things we have discussed in this forum many times. I got there through Sal's web page. SHARED VISIONS COMMUNITY WORKSHOP PRESENTATION GREENFIELD, IOWA AUGUST 4, 1994 Clark BreDahl (Editors' note: This is text from a presntation by Clark BreDahl during the visit to Greenfield. Clark farms and is on the Neely-Kinyon Farm Project Committee.) To share a vision, each of us must first have a vision of our own; a vision of where we would like our business to be a few years hence; a vision of what we would like our community to look like, and a perspective as to where our community will fit into the grand scheme of things years down the road. Finally, after we have planted those visions clearly in our minds, we need a plan as to how we will achieve our goals....Without a plan, our visions will never become realities. >From an agricultural perspective, life has perhaps changed more in the past twenty years than it did in the previous two hundred of our nation s existence. And though technology has been frequently mentioned as the culprit, I think it has to be viewed as a two-edged sword that can either help or hinder us. One thing is certain. Technology will not go away. If we do not use it, others will. The key is getting technology and research to solve problems for us, rather than create new ones. It follows then that to come up with the right answers, we must first ask the right questions. That is where a Shared Visions approach can help. When I survey the changes that have occurred in farming since I came back to the area in 1974, I don t notice the technological or mechanical differences nearly as much as I do the structural changes. When we talk about ninety percent of all fresh vegetables consumed in the United States now being grown in the San Juaquin Valley of California, rather than on scattered farms throughout each state in the Union, that is a fundamental, structural change of overwhelming proportions. When we talk about chicken surpassing pork and beef to become the most popular meat in the U.S., and six huge conglomerates producing seventy-five percent of all consumption and controlling all facets of production and=7F processing from hatch to retail meat counter that is fundamental. When we talk about California taking over as the leading dairy producing state, and over 50 percent of all dairy production in this country now coming from herds of five hundred head or more that s fundamental. How many farmers in Adair County still raise chickens? How many farmers in Adair County still milk cows? And how many of you came from farm homes like mine where forty years ago the egg check and cream check used to provide the lion s share of our family s spending money? That s fundamental change. How many times in recent years have you heard someone say, Somebody s going to farm the land and raise the livestock...What difference does it make who it is? To me it makes all the difference in the world regarding the quality of life we in rural Iowa will have. For us, people and prosperity may be inseparable. I think we will not have one without the other. If I am still a farmer 20 years from now perhaps by some stroke of luck even a wealthy farmer but my wife has to drive thirty miles for groceries, sixty miles to buy parts for my tractor, twenty miles to the nearest church or school, seventy-five miles to the nearest doctor, hospital or movie theater, or five miles down the road to the nearest neighbor s house, then our own personal financial success will have been a mighty hollow victory. If at that time the local retirement home is the largest employer in town, as it is already in some, we will know we have probably passed the point of no return as a viable economic community. Our federal government has struggled for fifty years to implement policies to aid in the conservation of our soil and water resources. And regardless of how effective you think those programs have been, it seems to me they hve continually overlooked the most obvious solution the pride involved in maintaining families on the land. I continually marvel that where there is a plan to hand the land down from generation to the next, there is also a plan, usually well implemented, to hand the land down in as good or better shape than it was received. I heard it once said that, the difference between family farms and corporate agriculture is that corporations don t have grandkids! It s a simplistic definition, but it s a profound impact statement. No question about it, our most valuable crop or resource is not our corn, beans, hogs or cattle, or even our rich fertile soil. It is our young people. And unfortunately they are also our biggest export. We raise bright kids around here. We have good schools, dedicated teachers; parents, friends and churches who teach real values, and communities where a strong work ethic is ingrained early as part of our heritage. Talk about producing a product the market wants....The big cities gobble up our best and brightest as fast as we can ship them out and usually pay a handsome premium for quality! I m convinced some of those young people would like to stay or return to this area s farms and small business communities. Many, I think, would even take a substantial pay cut to do it. But when you tell a young couple that in addition, they are going to have to each hold down two full time jobs (as some economists have suggested as a route to get into farming), the city usually wins the competition hands down. Environmental concerns and interest from outside as well as within farming about sustainable agriculture could have a=7F tremendous impact on the survival of family farms and rural communities. I think we need to make our plans accordingly. What started out as low input farming didn t stay that way very long. People came to quickly realize there is no such thing as low input farming. The best we can do is substitute inputs: labor for capital, management for capital, marketing skills for production volume. The list could be lengthy. The exciting part is that there are countless ways we can foster economic growth and efficiency on family farms and in small communities without investing millions of dollars at a time to do it. Maybe it shows my conservative streak, but I like that approach much better than the more common corporate philosophy these days of substituting capital for virtually every other tool in the production chain. I am very excited about the prospects for research, education and demonstration at both the Neely and Armstrong farms here in southwest Iowa. We have strong individual and community support, combined with Iowa State University s technology and strong financial commitment. These farms and their accompanying facilities will be powerful tools to give us all the right answers. Hopefully a powerful vision for the future of this area s farms and communities will first help us ask all the right questions. | Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 10 15:53:35 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07609; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:53:35 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA22667; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:42:57 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10050; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:42:23 -0400 Received: from redstone.interpath.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09212; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:41:25 -0400 Received: from mail-hub.interpath.net (critter.pdial.interpath.net [199.72.4.172]) by redstone.interpath.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA25019 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:41:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199504101941.PAA25019@redstone.interpath.net> X-Sender: critter@mail-hub.interpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:01:39 -0400 To: homestead@world.std.com From: s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net (Ed Ellesson) Subject: Re: Modern farming Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 8836 Status: RO X-Status: A > > I pulled this off a web site for Practical Farmers of Iowa. In= this >he seems to be saying many of the things we have discussed in this forum >many times. I got there through Sal's web page. > >SHARED VISIONS COMMUNITY WORKSHOP PRESENTATION GREENFIELD, >IOWA AUGUST 4, 1994 > Clark BreDahl >(Editors' note: This is text from a presntation by Clark >BreDahl during the visit to Greenfield. Clark farms and is >on the Neely-Kinyon Farm Project Committee.) >To share a vision, each of us must first have a vision of >our own; a vision of where we would like our business to be >a few years hence; a vision of what we would like our >community to look like, and a perspective as to where our >community will fit into the grand scheme of things years >down the road. Finally, after we have planted those visions >clearly in our minds, we need a plan as to how we will >achieve our goals....Without a plan, our visions will never >become realities. > >>From an agricultural perspective, life has perhaps changed >more in the past twenty years than it did in the previous >two hundred of our nation s existence. And though >technology has been frequently mentioned as the culprit, I >think it has to be viewed as a two-edged sword that can >either help or hinder us. One thing is certain. Technology >will not go away. If we do not use it, others will. > >The key is getting technology and research to solve problems >for us, rather than create new ones. It follows then that >to come up with the right answers, we must first ask the >right questions. That is where a Shared Visions approach >can help. > >When I survey the changes that have occurred in farming >since I came back to the area in 1974, I don t notice the >technological or mechanical differences nearly as much as I >do the structural changes. When we talk about ninety >percent of all fresh vegetables consumed in the United >States now being grown in the San Juaquin Valley of >California, rather than on scattered farms throughout each >state in the Union, that is a fundamental, structural change >of overwhelming proportions. > >When we talk about chicken surpassing pork and beef to >become the most popular meat in the U.S., and six huge >conglomerates producing seventy-five percent of all >consumption and controlling all facets of production and=7F >processing from hatch to retail meat counter that is >fundamental. > >When we talk about California taking over as the leading >dairy producing state, and over 50 percent of all dairy >production in this country now coming from herds of five >hundred head or more that s fundamental. > >How many farmers in Adair County still raise chickens? How >many farmers in Adair County still milk cows? And how many >of you came from farm homes like mine where forty years ago >the egg check and cream check used to provide the lion s >share of our family s spending money? That s fundamental >change. > >How many times in recent years have you heard someone say, > Somebody s going to farm the land and raise the >livestock...What difference does it make who it is? To me >it makes all the difference in the world regarding the >quality of life we in rural Iowa will have. For us, people >and prosperity may be inseparable. I think we will not have >one without the other. > >If I am still a farmer 20 years from now perhaps by some >stroke of luck even a wealthy farmer but my wife has to >drive thirty miles for groceries, sixty miles to buy parts >for my tractor, twenty miles to the nearest church or >school, seventy-five miles to the nearest doctor, hospital >or movie theater, or five miles down the road to the nearest >neighbor s house, then our own personal financial success >will have been a mighty hollow victory. If at that time the >local retirement home is the largest employer in town, as >it is already in some, we will know we have probably passed >the point of no return as a viable economic community. > >Our federal government has struggled for fifty years to >implement policies to aid in the conservation of our soil >and water resources. And regardless of how effective you >think those programs have been, it seems to me they hve >continually overlooked the most obvious solution the pride >involved in maintaining families on the land. I continually >marvel that where there is a plan to hand the land down from >generation to the next, there is also a plan, usually well >implemented, to hand the land down in as good or better >shape than it was received. > >I heard it once said that, the difference between family >farms and corporate agriculture is that corporations don t >have grandkids! It s a simplistic definition, but it s a >profound impact statement. > >No question about it, our most valuable crop or resource is >not our corn, beans, hogs or cattle, or even our rich >fertile soil. It is our young people. And unfortunately >they are also our biggest export. We raise bright kids >around here. We have good schools, dedicated teachers; >parents, friends and churches who teach real values, and >communities where a strong work ethic is ingrained early as >part of our heritage. > >Talk about producing a product the market wants....The big >cities gobble up our best and brightest as fast as we can >ship them out and usually pay a handsome premium for >quality! > >I m convinced some of those young people would like to stay >or return to this area s farms and small business >communities. Many, I think, would even take a substantial >pay cut to do it. But when you tell a young couple that in >addition, they are going to have to each hold down two full >time jobs (as some economists have suggested as a route to >get into farming), the city usually wins the competition >hands down. > >Environmental concerns and interest from outside as well as >within farming about sustainable agriculture could have a=7F >tremendous impact on the survival of family farms and rural >communities. I think we need to make our plans accordingly. > >What started out as low input farming didn t stay that way >very long. People came to quickly realize there is no such >thing as low input farming. The best we can do is >substitute inputs: labor for capital, management for >capital, marketing skills for production volume. The list >could be lengthy. The exciting part is that there are >countless ways we can foster economic growth and efficiency >on family farms and in small communities without investing >millions of dollars at a time to do it. Maybe it shows my >conservative streak, but I like that approach much better >than the more common corporate philosophy these days of >substituting capital for virtually every other tool in the >production chain. > >I am very excited about the prospects for research, >education and demonstration at both the Neely and Armstrong >farms here in southwest Iowa. We have strong individual and >community support, combined with Iowa State University s >technology and strong financial commitment. These farms and >their accompanying facilities will be powerful tools to give >us all the right answers. Hopefully a powerful vision for >the future of this area s farms and communities will first >help us ask all the right questions. | > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com > > Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy > model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible > 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours > > > Donald, you've given us some good ideas, so I hope ours will be accepted with the spirit in which they are offered. Much like (here in) North Carolina, the few remaining small-scale family farms must find alterna- tives to the giant machinery of corporate farming. May we gently suggest one of the best, kindest, newly-profitable notions of organic farming, esp. the kinds of fruit, veggies & grains (not to mention legumes, of which I heard recently there are about 50 or so recognized species?) Even here in traditional tobacco-hog-turkey-yam country, there are people who are begin- ning to make a comfortable living growing organic versions of everything from heirloom herbs and veggies to exotic fruit (have you TASTED the Asian pears?!). Organic farming gives back as much as it takes, and with the right choice of cash crop (if you're near San Diego/Los Angeles, you've already got enough room on your 2 acres for gourmet herbs & asparagus,) the money that used to come from eggs & milk (all still animal predation in one way or another) can still be yours. Just a thought or 3: Sherry E. and Ed Ellesson Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center Apex, NC, USA From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 10 22:48:05 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12415; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:48:05 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA20192; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:43:56 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08129; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:43:44 -0400 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08111; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:43:41 -0400 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id TAA26766 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:42:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:42:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199504110242.TAA26766@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Garden report Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1326 Status: RO X-Status: I finally got rid of the house guests and now have a chance to work in the garden. Peas are up over a foot and a half high. I need to get some thing for them to climb on. A friend gave me a pile of what he said was 1/2 in. PVC. I picked up some ells and was ready to go. Turns out the pipe is 3/4. Peas did not get something to climb on today. I thought half my potatoes washed out but I was wrong. WHere the mud flowed, the potatoes just took a bit longer to break the surface. Most of the others are up about a foot. The early onions are starting to bloom and the green onions are being picked. Radishes and lettuce cannot escape whatever is eating them. Every planting has been eaten off. Carrots are just starting to come up. I did get the tomatoes and peppers set out today. All except for the cherry tomatoes. The artichoke looked wilted this morning but this evening it looked like all was well. This week I hope to plant the last of the cool crops then get ready for the warm season plantings. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 10 23:04:28 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18364; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:04:28 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA22077; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:00:56 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19390; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:00:40 -0400 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19364; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:00:37 -0400 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id UAA27766 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 20:00:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 20:00:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199504110300.UAA27766@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Garden report Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1015 Status: RO X-Status: .... snip .... This week I hope to plant the last of >the cool crops then get ready for the warm season plantings. > Hold everything! I just received word that my bees are ready for me to pick up. I have two five frame nucs ready for me to do something with. I did manage to pick up two supers and 20 frames and foundation before the deluge of guests, now all I have to do is assemble. Before assembly I have to build a foundation jig. Then its fire up the air compressor and battery charger. Then assemble frames with the air nailer and embed wire with the battery charger. With the bloom this spring I may be able to get a small honey crop this summer. It's so good having bees again after an 8 year absense. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 10 23:21:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24256; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:21:29 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA23623; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:16:35 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29898; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:16:32 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29849; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:16:30 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id XAA08477 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:16:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 23:16:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Garden report To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199504110242.TAA26766@happy.qualcomm.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 900 Status: RO X-Status: Don - Gotta love that So. Cal. growing season! Here in the nation's capital, our peas are up a whole inch and a half. Potatoes just went in this weekend, and the lettuce, cabbage, and broccoli are up about a centimeter. The spinach is just peeking out. We also put in kidney beans, beets, leeks and carrots this weekend. Waiting in the starter flats are various squashes, tomatoes, peppers, and various herbs. We're maybe a week from the first corn planting. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 11 00:39:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA21299; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 00:39:15 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA02424; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 00:37:55 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15154; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 00:37:50 -0400 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13979; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 00:34:22 -0400 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00955 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:HOMESTEAD@world.std.com>; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:50:42 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa10266; 11 Apr 95 12:37 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:37:22 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:37:20 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f89dd52.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: Homestead list Subject: Composting Toilets Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1071 Status: RO X-Status: Bonnie A agree the answer is to build your own. I have seen several built out of rammed earth and then the insides sealed with bondcrete. The angle of slope is critical for spread, and then gravity feed down the slope at a slow speed. Some have a solid trap at the bottom, about 165cms high. One I saw just had a stainless bar, about 50mm deep, about 50mm off the bottom. Probably to stop the rollers! I would like to hear from people about the actual year round effectiveness of the alternative to a fan, which is a solar chimney. The vent pipe extends aout a metre above the roofline and is painted black. Black material absorbs heat, passes it on to the air inside, which rises, creates breeze heading in the right direction - down into the pan. -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | 20 Onslow Rd Shenton Pk 6008 Western Australia | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 11 14:45:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15832; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:45:02 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA17651; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:37:03 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07179; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:37:00 -0400 Received: from tiny.computing.csbsju.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07033; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:36:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:36:33 -0500 (CDT) From: WSTERBA@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: WSTERBA@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu Message-Id: <950411133633.e8e2@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu> Subject: Re: Garden report Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1990 Status: RO X-Status: Hi, All, Glad to hear from Ruth. I'm not in the Northeast, but Minnesota is renowned for its long winter (so it is wonderful for you guys with six foot peas, but give us a break!! We are thrilled to have our crocus blooming so early this year!!) On the mail box thing I have to add that its not just the yuppies with their ideas of how neighbors should live. Last year I had a visit from the police because of my compost heap. It seems that the neighbors considered it a garbage dump (since we had had a slight beginning of a thaw there were some citrus rinds visible) Well we were given 24 hours to thaw a rather large compost heap and have it removed or else be cited. (You should have seen us furiously (and I mean furiously) boiling water.) (This year we dug a deep pit in our garden and filled plastic garbage cans with the dirt which we took inside. So everytime we emptied the compost we could put a dirt cover over the top and no one was the wiser, but what a supreme hassle.) The owrst thing is I live in a town so small and old fashioned that you would think there shouldn't be a problem. (WE have no neighbors either in front of us nor behind us.) Anyway I'm ready to move (some place warm would be nice for a change!) I think we should also give jeff credit for noting the weakness of the previous articles. I really enjoyed both the Berry and other article, but have been somewhat concerned by the same things Jeff mentions. Nothing changes if a group of people just head off for the hills and more or less stick their heads inthe sand (In fact they are more than likely to be used for target practice when they least expect it). It seems to me that the issue of values is very important and although small communities is one way to instill these values in the young (that surround us) we do need to do something on a larger level. Wendy WSTERBA@CSBSJU.EDU "Speech uttered without bias is integrity, Provided no unspoken bias hides in the heart." Kural Verse 119 From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 11 11:26:31 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03738; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:26:31 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA24546; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:32:00 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12000; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:31:53 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11963; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:31:50 -0400 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA10217 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 07:31:48 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: More from Wendell Berry Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 06:24:12 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199504101855.LAA26920@qualcomm.com> Lines: 53 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2653 Status: RO X-Status: D Don, thanks for sharing the articles on CONSERVING COMMUNITIES and SHARED VISIONS. Both articles were very enjoyable reading and the problems they describe are important to all of us. It is hard to find fault with their views, but something did bother me after reading them. After some thought, I decided the articles were correct, but their focus is wrong. Let me first summarize the articles. Wendel Barry seems to be saying that small communities are being destroyed by a global community and that the answer to the our current problems with conservation can be solved by going back to small business and communities. Clark BreDahl says our shared vision of the future consists of a model for the community and business. This vision should include the pride inherent in small farms. He also says that our real crop is the young who will carry the vision forward. Both authors are concerned about the environment and imply that this is the underlying problem. The focus of both views is small business. They see this as a major part of the solution. This leads to the conclusion that big business is the problem. If we are looking for a solution then we need to ask: Who is in control here? The answer to that question seems to be big business. They lobby, advertise, and control the economy. The next question is: Who can possibly change things for the better? The answer is not small business. Small business can not dominate the large business environment. They are helpless without the support of the consumer. If there is a correct focus to our problems with bad business and the ecology it is at the consumer. The consumer is somewhat controlled by advertising. So, this leads me to the conclusion that a lifestyle change is needed. Consumers need a new model to pass on to their children. We all need to think about the vote we cast with our purchases. We all need to act as models for change so others can see there is an alternative. Maybe this is just nit picking, but I do not think so. Saying that we are the solution/problem makes me very uncomfortable. I want to think that the problem is someone else. But, saying that the answer is small business and small communities seems like a partial truth. For me homesteading is closer to the solution than the models provided by either author. Community and business is built from individuals and families. If the individual doesn't support an ecological and sustainable vision, then small business doesn't have a chance. I have been saying this for years without getting much agreement. Am I the only one who feels this way? Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 11 20:43:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04396; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:43:38 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA09166; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:37:34 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00100; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:37:28 -0400 Received: from ashland.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00082; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:37:27 -0400 Received: from sol.ashland.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylbm27388; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:33:25 -0400 Received: for mhamel@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.10/931002.1044) id UAA16184; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:32:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:32:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew W. Hamel" Subject: A Few Words in Favor of Wendell Berry To: homestead-digest-approval@world.std.com Cc: homestead-digest@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199504111955.AA02520@world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1020 Status: RO X-Status: Hello all, Although I didn't read the entire excerpt (there's something weird about reading his writings on my P.C.), but I think his focus is on small community-building enterprises, not necessarily small business. In many other writings he focuses on family farm-related agricultural businesses that nurture (not exploit) the rural traditions that tie us all to the land. If he tends to view Big Business as the bad guy, this doesn't re-order his argument into a polarization of big versus little. I think he's just fed up with the American idea that people can only realize their full potential inside a corporation. On a related note, one of the reasons I enjoy Berry's writing is he refuses to pledge allegiance to any current political scheme (conservative or liberal). How refreshing to read the views of a man who can truly think for himself. (Sorry. If I gush it's because I just finished a novel of his.) Matt Hamel mhamel@ashland.edu In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Apr 12 12:16:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02787; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:16:36 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05147; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:05:29 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00585; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:04:51 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00554; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:04:48 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA29330 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:04:47 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: The ultimate game Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 07:48:14 -0400 Message-Id: <-txYlS9cpEgK069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: <9504111707.AA17306@moe.meaddata.com> Lines: 38 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1849 Status: RO X-Status: The rain is keeping me inside again (groan), so I'm sitting here thinking about challenges, games, and trying to identify the ultimate activity. This has led to a review of past sports, college, carriers, chess, bridge, hiking, volunteering, and so on. It is fairly easy to identify some of the attributes to look for. The game would have to be endless, have ultimate variety, be competitive in a constructive way, provide a meaningful product, be available at any age, contribute to one health and enhance our need for security. The game which meets all these criteria is probably obvious to everyone. It is a game which we have been playing for 20 years and have never moved past amateur status. It is game available to everyone, but only a few decide to take the game seriously. I call the game food production, but to others it is simply kitchen gardening. Every so often I think of myself as an expert is some phase of this game, but a rude reminder comes along and punctures my inflated ego. Last week one of those rude awakenings occurred and it is still bothering me. Our pantry is starting to run out of some items, and the garden has very little to offer this time of the year. The wife was craving fresh vegetables, so she gave in and bought fresh broccoli and some other vegetables. Being stubborn, I grumbled, but enjoyed the fresh produce. The problem is that we are surrounded by fresh vegetables. The bracken fern are sprouting everywhere, the nettles are just coming up, most of the weeds are edible, and here we sit not having the mental conditioning needed to play the game. It is tough admitting that one is an amateur. Is it just laziness, lack of information, or poor habits? Maybe it is living in a society which no longer recognizes the hunter-gather lifestyle as viable. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 11 23:59:45 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24232; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:59:45 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA06791; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:57:24 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18761; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:57:04 -0400 Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18738; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:57:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199504120357.AA18738@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2023; Tue, 11 Apr 95 23:55:51 EDT Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8544; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:55:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:55:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Garden report In-Reply-To: Message of 04/11/95 at 14:32:26 from , s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1319 Status: O X-Status: On 04/11/95 at 14:32:26 s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net said: >> >> ..... Radishes and lettuce cannot escape whatever is eating >>them. Every planting has been eaten off. Carrots are just starting to >come up. >> >Don, If either of your 2 dogs shed, as ours do (copiously) at this time of >year, you can brush them and spread the furn on the ground around your rad- >ishes & lettuce. If the munchers are bunnies or deer, they won't cross >this (to them) smelly boundary. Good luck, >Sherry There's also nature's solution: mark your territory with urine, as many animals do. You guys out there have convenient, on-site application equipment. Ladies do better to use a plastic milk jug with the top cut off.... If that doesn't work, see if you can go to a zoo somewhere and pick up a truckload of manure from one of the big cat exhibits. I've heard that deer won't go anywhere near tiger or lion poop. We haven't tried big cat manure, but marking our territory did keep the 'coons away from the corn last summer. bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Apr 12 00:21:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01831; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:21:56 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA09655; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:20:52 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29574; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:20:40 -0400 Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29524; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:20:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199504120420.AA29524@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2183; Wed, 12 Apr 95 00:19:28 EDT Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9102; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:19:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:19:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Garden report In-Reply-To: Message of 04/11/95 at 15:41:07 from , s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1382 Status: RO X-Status: On 04/11/95 at 15:41:07 s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net said: >> >Bonni and anyone out there with onions: Do you have WILD onions that >grown on your land? Are you kidding? Where DON'T I have wild onions??!! Someone else adequately answered the edibility question, but to tie this thread in with another one: I have loads of wild onions - and weeds - and mosses - and weeds - and little tiny violets - and weeds - because I'm not interested in keeping my lawn picture perfect or in spraying it with cancer-causing broadleaf killers and so on. The idea of putting temporary fencing around the house and letting sheep loose on it periodically is really appealing, especially after three summers on the Anti-Christ (our lawn tractor - occasional mowings keep the children from getting lost in the grass). Actually, I've come to the conclusion that grass is a pernicious weed that invades anywhere it can get. Sometimes I think I'd rather look at a blasted wasteland than all that grass....especially after I've spent time trying to get the &*^#$)*$ stuff out of my perennial garden! bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 13 09:20:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08776; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:20:40 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA28310; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:19:39 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01687; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:18:58 -0400 Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01637; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:18:54 -0400 Received: from whistle.cellbio.duke.edu by duke.cs.duke.edu (5.65/3.10G/4.1.3) id AA29422; Thu, 13 Apr 95 09:18:51 -0400 Message-Id: Date: 13 Apr 1995 09:19:58 -0400 From: "Dan Settles" Subject: RE-RE>Garden report To: homestead@world.std.com X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP/QM 3.0.0 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 596 Status: RO X-Status: Reply to: RE-RE>Garden report Hello Ellessons, I would have sent you a personal message, but your e-mail address wasn't attached. I was just curious about the name "Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center". I'm not very familiar with Apex so I was wondering if this is a private farm, or if this is some form of public wildlife center. Interesting name either way. Dan Settles dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu -------------------------------------- Date: 4/12/95 10:55 PM To: Dan Settles From: homestead@world.std.com > Sherry Ed Ellesson Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center Apex, NC, USA From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 13 10:11:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29634; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:11:00 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05330; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:03:57 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12936; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:02:48 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12892; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:02:46 -0400 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA06772 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:02:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:02:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Magazines To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 946 Status: RO X-Status: Ok, I got my first issues of BackHome Magazine and Countryside and Small Stock Journal, and I want to thank Larry and whoever else for recommending them. I now understand the difference between them and TMEN. I'm especially impressed with Countryside and Small Stock Journal, which is packed full of all the juicy content I keep expecting to see in TMEN and never do. Countryside is really a support group for the homesteading-afflicted, much like we are here ;) Let me add my vote for these two magazines! +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 13 10:43:04 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13998; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:43:04 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA09756; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:35:28 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08332; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:34:41 -0400 Received: from redstone.interpath.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08312; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:34:39 -0400 Received: from mail-hub.interpath.net (critter.pdial.interpath.net [199.72.4.172]) by redstone.interpath.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA15872 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:34:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199504131434.KAA15872@redstone.interpath.net> X-Sender: critter@mail-hub.interpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:54:30 -0400 To: homestead@world.std.com From: s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net (Ed Ellesson) Subject: Re: RE-RE>Garden report Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2524 Status: RO X-Status: > Reply to: RE-RE>Garden report > >Hello Ellessons, >I would have sent you a personal message, but your e-mail address wasn't >attached. I was just curious about the name "Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife >Center". I'm not very familiar with Apex so I was wondering if this is a >private farm, or if this is some form of public wildlife center. >Interesting name either way. >Dan Settles >dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu > >-------------------------------------- >Date: 4/12/95 10:55 PM >To: Dan Settles >From: homestead@world.std.com >> >Sherry >Ed Ellesson >Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center >Apex, NC, USA > > > Dan - When we moved here from California, we noticed that many of the locals named their "farms" regardless of how large or small. We went through lists and lists of names, each more poetic than the last, but all seemed to take themselves far too seriously. In defference to our horses, and two large, loud parrots, (and under the influence of a fair amount of ale) we settled upon Horsefeathers Farm. Two years later, when I (Sherry) got involved with wildlife rehabilitation (taking in orphaned and injured wildlife for rehab and eventual release back to the wild) we just expanded the name to reflect my/our work with the animals. As to government connections: I am licensed to do rehab work by both the State of North Carolina and the Federal Government, but they do not contribute in any way - financial or otherwise, and the only reporting I do is an annual written report of the migratory birds I've treated (for the Fed.) Ed is both my financial support system and my partner in spirit for this work. We live on seven acres surrounded on three sides by forest in a very "horsey" commu- nity, and planted a fruit orchard (if you can call eleven trees an orchard) the first year we were here. We also planted a huge veggie garden one year, having doubled the retaining wall that goes around two sides of the stable to create a raised planter box. The veggies all grew so well it would make Organic Gardening proud; but that year, their research proved that treated wood leaches chemicals into the soil so we had to pitch all the dried/preserved/frozen veggies and put off further home food production until we can build another set of beds out of something less toxic. Sorry this got so long -- if you'd like to just chat more, I can be reached at sherry@critter.pdial.interpath.net Sherry, and of course Mr. Ed Ed Ellesson Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center Apex, NC, USA From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Apr 13 11:19:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01097; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:19:38 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA14128; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:14:18 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04080; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:13:27 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04048; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:13:24 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA14610 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 08:13:21 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: The ultimate game Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:49:14 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199504121700.KAA01578@qualcomm.com> Lines: 22 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1013 Status: RO X-Status: Donald E. Bowen wrote: > A favorite was Morell Mushrooms in beef brain. Wild onions and > fiddle head ferns were early treats. A friends mother used to make a stew > from whatever wild game and wild greens were available. Usually it was > rabbit and thisle. One local treat that I could not handle was barbequed > snapping turtle. Wow, this is a part of life that few get to sample today. I wish that my early education had included and introduction to wild foods. We had mesquite trees and cactus, but mother refused to cook with them. Now people are finally beginning to understand the value of native plants and animals. Hopefully, the schools will help remove the stigma from wild food. My one achievement in wild food gathering is with berries. We make gallons of jelly each year and have it on fresh bread each morning at breakfast. If you ever get another one of those barbequed snapping turtles, I'll trade you four jars of jelly . Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Apr 15 19:05:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17509; Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:05:41 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.11/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09501; Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:07:03 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29665; Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:06:49 -0400 Received: from redstone.interpath.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29653; Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:06:47 -0400 Received: from mail-hub.interpath.net (critter.pdial.interpath.net [199.72.4.172]) by redstone.interpath.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29235 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:06:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199504152306.TAA29235@redstone.interpath.net> X-Sender: critter@mail-hub.interpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 18:26:28 -0400 To: homestead@world.std.com From: s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net (Ed Ellesson) Subject: Spring's sprung Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1476 Status: RO X-Status: Okay -- all lovers of the land who spent the day working outside, raise your hands. Don't know what the weather is like over the far reaches of homestead-land; but here in North Carolina, it was perhaps the first truly perfect day for being outdoors. Ed fired up his tractor with the bushhog on the back, and mowed a good three of our seven acres (about another three are left forested.) I went out and had a good talk with my fruit trees, and as they were expressing some hunger pangs, dressed them all with composted cow manure and remulched with pine straw. Got a couple of ornamentals dressed up for Easter too, so I'm off to a good start catching up with the mountain of chores I DIDN'T do last Fall! At this rate, I'll be ready for Spring planting right around...October? Jeesh! Anyway, for you organic gardeners: Dan Settles says he's not entirely convinced that the chemicals in treated wood actually get leached up into the plants growing in treated-wood boxes or raised beds. Person- ally, I'd like to analyze some of the plants grown thusly, and see if they do or do not contain the heavy metals Organic Gardening was so concerned about. I sure could make good use of my planter boxes if Dan's skepticism pays off. Anyone else done any work of this kind, or know of any other sources of information? (BESIDES the treated- wood manufacturers, please.) Thanks, Sherry and the better half, Ed Ellesson Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center Apex, NC, USA From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 17 22:24:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23916; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:24:56 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylxx21312; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:20:07 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06117; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:18:04 -0400 Received: from redstone.interpath.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06078; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:18:02 -0400 Received: from mail-hub.interpath.net (critter.pdial.interpath.net [199.72.4.172]) by redstone.interpath.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA04981 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:17:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199504180217.WAA04981@redstone.interpath.net> X-Sender: critter@mail-hub.interpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 21:37:15 -0400 To: homestead@world.std.com From: s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net (Ed Ellesson) Subject: kudzu kreations Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2602 Status: RO X-Status: This is a follow-up for the folks here in the group who sent personal messages about my having cooked and eaten kudzu recently. I was told that some uses for the godawful stuff would be valuable so here goes: To eat kudzu -- shoots, small leaves, large leaves cut up can all be braised or sauteed and eaten like fiddlehead fern shoots or any other type of greens. roots are best in the fall and winter months when the the plant's nutrients are retreating there and leaves have died back In the garden - I use kudzu vines instead of commercial plastic rose ties to tie up climbing roses, as they last longer, look much more natural (not that fake green) and are longer. Best of all, they're free. - Kudzu vines can also be used in place of string or netting for trellising peas, squash, etc., and for tying up tomatoes. Around home --- Kudzu vines can be used on a pinch in any situation where you need strong twine or a rope and don't have it handy. I've used them for tying down tarps; making an emergency leash when one of my dogs got out and I was nowhere near the house when he cruised by; and bundling several boards together to move them to a project site. For crafters -- Think of kudzu vines as a replacement for grape vines and soon you won't have to hit the craft store for pre-twisted wreaths and sprays to decorate. For peace and - If your neighborhood has one of those kids who spends quiet every waking hour on an all-terrain cycle, with no indication that consideration for others, the hour of the day it is, or parental supervision are part of the picture, invite your young friend to explore your kudzu patch on the ATC. No wheeled mechanism I am aware of ever quite gets over its first encounter with the Big K, and soon you will actually be able to HEAR the birds, crickets and pines whispering in the breeze. If anyone has any others, please contribute. I'm determined to make the best of a bad situation with this stuff, until we all find so many uses for it, we use it all up and it becomes scarce. Sherry, and of course Ed Ellesson Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center Apex, NC, USA From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 17 19:24:58 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05031; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:24:58 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA28150; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:18:40 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24363; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:18:15 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23496; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:17:04 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA07933 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 16:12:16 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Raised Planters Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 14:27:40 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199504172005.NAA28168@qualcomm.com> Lines: 28 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1462 Status: RO X-Status: Donald E. Bowen wrote: > For some of my raised beds I used redwood that had an earlier life > as concrete forms. For the rest I bought some redwood but balked at the > $1.25 bd ft price. For the rest I used the cheapest 2X4s I could find but > they were still around $.75 a bd ft. This last weekend I found a source of > rough cut redwood 2X4s that may be a good price. My beds are 4 by 16 and > the garden in on a slight north slope. Don, I share your enthusiasm for raised planters. It sure makes maintenance easier and the plants also seem to like it. What occurred to me was why not grow lumber specifically for small homestead projects? Sure, it takes a while, but trees are interesting to grow. If you plant a bunch close together they do not need much room, and they grow tall without a lot of knots. Some trees grow up to ten feet a year. After a few years they can be cut and split into planks for building. Another approach is to construct log cabin type planters out of small trees which have not been split. We have both split plank planters and a few small log cabin types. Both seem easy to construct. Normally, only timber trees are grown, but a homesteader could grow fast growing trees not normally used by the lumber industry. I read about someone doing this with bamboo once, but do not know how practical that is. Might be an interesting subject to explore. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 17 19:12:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29778; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:12:51 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA26734; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:13:14 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21593; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:12:49 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21514; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 19:12:42 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA07936 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 16:12:18 -0700 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Homestead Recreations Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 14:47:02 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199504171949.MAA25611@qualcomm.com> Lines: 93 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 4660 Status: RO X-Status: Donald E. Bowen wrote: > I am not quite comfortable with the word fun. Why must everything > be fun or is the word used interchangably with enjoyment? THe saying "are > we having fun yet?" seems to imply that what we are doing right now has no > enjoyment to us. Don, saying "everything" must be fun would bother me also. My personal goal is to be contented with homesteading, but a little fun along the way would be nice. This discussion probably relates to our previous self denial discussions and I'm trying to argue that homesteading is enjoyable if done right. The exact definition of the word "right" is what the remainder of the those jumbled words was trying to convey. The comment about "Are we having fun yet" gave me images of someone always looking for a higher level of enjoyment. This is a useless search in my opinion. Better yet is to enjoy everything and mix in some variety. Anyway, fun in my original statement was not saying we need constant search or change to our normal activities. My guess is that we are mostly talking about the same idea, just having problems with this imperfect thing called language. > Much recreation accepted by society is just one more form of > consumption. You are told to consume because this allows someone to sell > you something. You are told you are not having "fun" unless you are play > acting like you are a permanete member of the leisure class. Lounging > around a pool with an alcholic drink is supposed to be the height of "fun". Right! Most of the world has the view that consumption, money, power are fun. We could also use the term happiness here. Anyway, do you and I believe this? Do we believe that homesteading is more fun than the American dream of money and possessions? If we do believe that homesteading is more fun, then why? How is homesteading more fun? What do we tell prospective homesteaders about having fun while homesteading? > I think what you are doing most of the time should be enjoyable. If > your employment is not enjoyable, then it is time to rethink. Not > everything you do can be enjoyable but most if it should be and only you can > define what is enjoyable. OK, that sound reasonable. But, how do you show someone who thinks fun is a large coke at MacDonalds that other options exist. What about those periods when we change from one activity to another? How do we go about choosing the next activity? I'll bet we both have more projects lined up than we have years left to enjoy them. But we still need try new things, and try to get our kids up on the same soap box . > > Birds are a joy > > Plants are fascinating > > Pets, wild animals, farm animals can be fun > > Cooking can become routine > > Libraries, learning, research are the ultimate pleasure. > .... snip .... > > What most of the above have on common is learning. Learning what > the world around us is about. Learning how each piece fits and what happens > if a piece is missing or distorted. I find great enjoyment in just > learning. Finding a topic and reading until I understand all I want to. > Recently I saw a suggestion about learning economics so I have launched on a > course to do just that. I also like to see or read about a new skill then > go learn to do it myself. Without learning it is just marking time. You > might as well be staring at the boob tube. That is an interesting observation, my examples "are" mostly related to learning. Of course there are lots of activities which are considered fun and do not involve much learning. Humm, maybe activities which involve learning and exploration are the ones which society has been discarding and embracing consumption instead. The pleasure of sex, popularity, youthful appearance, and TV are pleasures which society seems to be emphasizing at the present. Well, my whole point in defining homesteading fun is to convince others that there is an alternative lifestyle. If we can't say homesteading is more fun and show how to have fun, then who's going to take it seriously. If we tell the youth about all the worlds problems then tell them to go after the American dream, what happens. More problems, consumption, pollution, conflict, couch potatoes, etc. Sure, homesteading isn't a complete solution to the worlds problems, but it is closer than anything else I have seen... Some of the nails are falling out of this soap box. Too much shaking the fist and stomping. I'll just step down and bolt this thing together and be back. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 17 18:54:19 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA21609; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:54:19 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA21138; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:48:50 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08163; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:48:32 -0400 Received: from redstone.interpath.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08108; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:48:25 -0400 Received: from mail-hub.interpath.net (critter.pdial.interpath.net [199.72.4.172]) by redstone.interpath.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA05024 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:48:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199504172248.SAA05024@redstone.interpath.net> X-Sender: critter@mail-hub.interpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:07:50 -0400 To: homestead@world.std.com From: s004172@critter.pdial.interpath.net (Ed Ellesson) Subject: Re: Spring's sprung Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 969 Status: RO X-Status: >It sure has been a changable spring this year! Just yesterday we had snow to 2000 feet and 30's temps in "sunny" "mild" California. Boy am I glad that I was too lazy to set out my tomatoes yet. > >Today I am going to go lay out the path in the front yard, pull out that old rotten board that makes the flower bed one foot too shallow, and pull up a mess more vinca. Maybe I'll run out and buy some potting soil for my indoor tomato and bury it up to its neck now that it has grown up a foot or so. I'm going to plan some more sweet peas cause only three survived the overabundance of water we had last month and then the gopher feeding frenzy. I just got to plant some stuff today!! > >Danielle > > > Pulling up vinca?!? Please tell me you have to so there'll be more space for veggies. Otherwise, I'll be weeping in my willow for such beautiful ground cover gone to waste. Sherry - and of course Ed Ellesson Horsefeathers Farm Wildlife Center Apex, NC, USA From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 18 00:03:39 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00437; Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:03:39 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylye06554; Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:01:11 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20805; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:58:58 -0400 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20780; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:58:53 -0400 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id UAA01335 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 20:58:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 20:58:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199504180358.UAA01335@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: poison oak honey Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1108 Status: RO X-Status: A comment by Sherry Ellesson in a recent post sent me rushing to the books this evening. You mentioned poison oak honey which did the trick to me. Poison oak is one of the few things I am alergic to. This last winter we went for a hike near here and saw the first for the year. We were about 30 ft from it when I saw it and gave it a wide berth. Within a week I had a rash all over my arms and face. As far as I know I did not touch any and no one else with me had the problem. A couple of weeks later the dogs gave me a present in the worst PO rash ever. The comment sent me to the books but with negative results. "The Hive and the Honey Bee" shows PO as an important nector source in the pacific region. The comments under posion honey do not mention PO. I will continue to research this. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 18 00:03:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00447; Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:03:41 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylye06549; Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:01:09 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20759; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:58:50 -0400 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20752; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:58:48 -0400 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id UAA01328 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 20:58:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 20:58:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199504180358.UAA01328@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Raised Planters Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 977 Status: RO X-Status: Several years ago There was a flurry of press reports about a very fat growing tree that could be used for home grown fuel. It was mentioned at the time that ehy could planted much like corn and only a small number were needed to provide all the fuel needed in a small house near the canadian border. The reports dissapeared during the grab-everything-you-can raygun years. Has anyone heard more? As for log raised planters, it seems to me that a small log split in half would be an efficent use of culled trees. This is the principal behind split rail fences. Use small trees which are easy to handle and need culled anyway then just stack up as many as you need. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Apr 18 00:05:39 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01144; Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:05:39 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylye05682; Tue, 18 Apr 1995 00:00:47 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20774; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:58:53 -0400 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20760; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:58:51 -0400 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id UAA01331 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 20:58:47 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 20:58:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199504180358.UAA01331@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: kudzu kreations Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 600 Status: RO X-Status: Kudzu is a perfect example of how not to mess with natural systems of little is known. This vine which is taking over much of the south was introduced as a cheap cattle and mule food. No natural preditors or dieses means that it grows unchecked. Is it still spreading north and how far has it gone? Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Apr 17 18:16:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03921; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 18:16:46 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA02188; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:24:01 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18002; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:23:34 -0400 Received: from netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17976; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:23:32 -0400 Received: from news.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylxd17355; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:21:45 -0400 Received: from netcom.com by news.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12410; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:20:35 -0400 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQylxc28493; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:10:39 -0400 Received: by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id OAA16443; Mon, 17 Apr 1995 14:09:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199504172109.OAA16443@netcom22.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 13:00:19 EDT From: alexande@netcom.com (Mark Alexander) To: homestead@world.std.com X-Mailer: PMMail (v1.05 UNREGISTERED SHAREWARE) Subject: Re: Spring's sprung Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 698 Status: RO X-Status: It sure has been a changable spring this year! Just yesterday we had snow to 2000 feet and 30's temps in "sunny" "mild" California. Boy am I glad that I was too lazy to set out my tomatoes yet. Today I am going to go lay out the path in the front yard, pull out that old rotten board that makes the flower bed one foot too shallow, and pull up a mess more vinca. Maybe I'll run out and buy some potting soil for my indoor tomato and bury it up to its neck now that it has grown up a foot or so. I'm going to plan some more sweet peas cause only three survived the overabundance of water we had last month and then the gopher feeding frenzy. I just got to plant some stuff today!! Danielle